Text 24105, 130 rader
Skriven 2008-11-25 03:50:10 av Jeff Smith (1:14/5)
  Kommentar till text 23110 av Michiel van der Vlist (2:280/5555)
Ärende: An unconvenient truth
=============================
Hello Michiel.

04 Nov 08 11:44, you wrote to me:

 MV> Hello Jeff,

 MV> On Tuesday November 04 2008 01:07, you wrote to me:

 JS>>     I disagree. The lack of the existance of WMD's at a
 JS>> particular moment does not prove that they did not exist at some
 JS>> point prior to that moment.

 MV> And that there is no pink unicorn in my living room right now, does
 MV> not prove that there never was one....

  No it doesn't. Just as the the WMD's may have existed at one time but
were gone by the time Bush needed them the most.


 MV>>> If there is proof that something exists, one must be able to
 MV>>> provide. Either the proof or the goods. But he didn't. Ergo: he
 MV>>> lied when he claimed to have proof.

 MV>>> *That* is the onconvenient truth you will have to face....

 JS>>     I have never supported Bush's use of WMD's as a reason for
 JS>> the war in Iraq. Unlike the "Missles of October" there was no
 JS>> evidence to support Bush's claim.

 MV> So you voted for Kerry in 2004?

    Again I wasn't really happy with either candidate. I voted for the
person that I thought had the best possibility of changing for the
better.

 JS>> To what degree Bush was deliberate in his claim or just
 JS>> misinformed is unclear. Regardless, he made the decision to use
 JS>> the WMD's as a reason.

 MV> Indeed, he made the dcisision and for that he should be held
 MV> responsible.

     As I have always stated. People should be responsible for their
actions. Even their use of bad judgement.

     If Bush had claimed the existance of WMD's and provided proof of
their current or recent existance. Then I wouldn't have had as much of
a problem.
with


 MV>>> George Bush did not just say he believed Saddam to have WMD's,
 MV>>> he said he had *proof*.

 JS>>      Is that what he was told or was that what he believed to be
 JS>> true?

 MV> He is the chief in command, he is responsible. If his intelligence
 MV> misinformed him - for which there is no proof - he is responsible
 MV> anyway, as they were operating under his command.
 MV> It was Bush that made the desision to go tho war, and he used the
 MV> WMD's as an excuse. For that he is responsible.

 JS>> Or, did he specifically know there were no WMD's? Does it really
 JS>> matter Michiel?

 MV> It does not matter to you that your elected president is a liar?

     It doesn't matter whether he lied or was misinformed. He mentioned
the existance of WMD's. If there was any doubt in the intelligence that
doubt should have been satisfied first.

     I don't think we're really that far apart here Michiel.

 MV> I'll tell you what: it matters to me that the most powerful man in the
 MV> world is a liar and a war monger who is responsible for the death of
 MV> hundreds of thousands of people. He should be in The Hague next to
 MV> Taylor, Mladidsj and Karadidsj.

     Ahhh... There ya go again.

 MV>>> Face it Jeff: Your elected president lied to you and the
 MV>>> American people believed it. An estimated 150 to 600 thousand
 MV>>> people died

 JS>>      And how many of those are estimated deaths versus confirmed
 JS>> deaths?

 MV> Does it really matter? What if it was "only" one hundred thousand? You
 MV> will still have to face the inconveneient truth...

 JS>>  How many untold thousands of people would have continued to
 JS>> die under the Hussein dictatorship and for how many years?

 MV> We do not know that. What we do know is that Saddam Hussein was no
 MV> longer in charge after the invasion and therefore not responsible any
 MV> more. The US invaded Iraq, and are terefore responsible for the death
 MV> that resulted.

 JS>> The one thing that I will say is that the Hussein evil was a
 JS>> known quantity in Iraq. But I also continue to think that a
 JS>> chance for a better life for the Iraqi people is better than no
 JS>> chance.

 MV> Beliefs do not make facts. And the fact is that Iraq ia in a mess with
 MV> no peace in sight.

 MV>>> because of that dreadful mistake.

 JS>>     Whether it was a mistake or not all depends on who you ask.

 MV> And whether Neil Armstrong actually set foot on the moon or if it was
 MV> all filmed in the Nevada Desert depends on who you ask...

 MV> Some day however y'all with have to face the inconvenient truth...

     And someday you might even come to the realization that we are not
the hatefull, war mongering, self-rightious, control freaks that you
currently think we are. I would always like to think there is hope. <g>


 MV> Cheers, Michiel

 MV> --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503
 MV>  * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Jeff

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