Text 21502, 160 rader
Skriven 2011-08-01 05:30:05 av Lee Lofaso (2:203/2)
  Kommentar till text 21381 av Björn Felten (2:203/2)
Ärende: Pulling out
===================
Hello Björn,

 LL>> A moderator either allows flames, or does not allow flames.

BJ>Or he simply goes with the flow.

Anarchy rules!  The role of a moderator is to help facilitate
discussion, not hinder it.  It is not really anarchy, but in a
manner of speaking it is.

BF>The participants owns the echo as far as I am concerned.
BF>They decide how they want the echo. They decide by practice.

The owners of the land are the original inhabitants.  That is
why partitions never work.  Whether it be Vietnam, Korea, Palestine,
or any other land, it is all the same.  This echo is no different.

BF>That's my interpretation of "democracy" at least.

There are many different flavors of democracy.  What works
for one people might not work for another people.  In fact,
no two peoples have the same flavor of democracy.  One could
argue that democracy is nothing more than an upgraded form
of feudalism.  One could also say the same thing about fascism,
and socialism, and communism, and any other -ism devised by
man since Roman times.  All are variant forms of feudalism,
including democracy.

BF>And also my interpretation of "free speech". There's no need to
BF>protect free speech if it's limited to "acceptable" speech. It's
BF>the uncomfortable speech, not accepted by the Moral Majority, that
BF>needs protection. The other speech needs no protection, since it
BF>will always be allowed.

Democracy is mob rule.  There are two forms of such tyrannies -
tyranny of the majority, and tyranny of the minority/selected few.
Tyrants need to limit free speech, else they lose favor and thus
power.  And that is what it is all about for tyrants - power.

 LL>> It is about maturity. Or lack of it.

BF>Amen to that! Freedom has always demanded maturity.
BF>If there is no maturity, freedom will inevitably be abused.

I once knew a fellow who made a living running for sheriff.
Every four years he'd throw his hat into the ring, proclaiming
the same message during each and every campaign -

"If you can be stupid, I can be stupid too!"

He never won, but truly enjoyed meeting people and eating the food
that was provided for him at barrooms where he campaigned at.

 LL>> What is the definition of "democracy"?

BF>A huge portion of people -- especially people from parts of
BF>the world that has no true democracy -- thinks that it's all
BF>about popular votes in elections. Nothing could be more wrong.
BF>Democracy is the art of letting *everybody* be part of the
BF>decisions. Even -- if not most importantly -- those in minority.

That might be a definition, but what basis can you show for that
definition?  What you stated is more of an ideology than a definition.
An ideology that may have some merit, but an ideology nonetheless.

 LL>> Democracy - Rule by one race or people.

BF>Ahem... No. Rule by *the* people.

The etymology of the word suggests a particular people or race.
The word "democracy" is derived from the Greek word "demokratia",
a compound word formed from "demos" (people) and "-kratia" (rule).,
a derivative of the noun "kratos" (power, authority).  Now, follow
the bouncing ball -

The original meaning of the Greek word "demos" was "district, land".
This eventually came to denote the people living in such a district.
This was considered as a social class participating in government.
And you know what that means - DEMOCRACY.

So there you go.

Democracy is, by definition, rule by a race or people.

 LL>> Janis Kracht has accused Björn Felten of being "antidemocratic".

BF>Well, let's first start by making a very important distinction here.
BF>Fidonet is one thing and what fidonet carries is a totally different
BF>thing.  It's exactly like internet vs. the web.

Not quite.  Fidonet echoes are not newsgroups.

BF>Fidonet is a network. As per definition (e.g. P4.3.8) it is,
BF>and must be, a technocracy.

That may be true of zones outside of zone 1.  However, when
a zone coordinator has excommunicated herself, and a major mail
hub has excommunicated himself, that entire zone is, in effect,
excommunicated.  That is, if you go by P4.  :)

BF>The different echoes and similar that fidonet carries may very
BF>well be governed in a democratic way. How this democracy shall be
BF>interpreted is privy to anyone who happens to be responsible for
BF>the network carried resource.

Adolf Hitler had his own version of democracy.
Benito Mussolini had his own version of democracy.
Joe Stalin had his own version of democracy.
Mao Tse Tung had his own version of democracy.
Saddam Hussein had his own version of democracy.
The Ayatollah Khomeini had his own version of democracy.
Fidel Castro has his own version of democracy.
George W. Bush has his own version of democracy.
Barack Obama has his own version of democracy.
Janis Kracht has her own version of democracy.
Ross Cassell has his own version of democracy.
Björn Felten has his own version of democracy.
Kermit the Frog has his own version of democracy.
Miss Piggy has her own version of democracy.
We all have our own version of democracy.
Same thing with reality.

BF>Ergo: I'm basically an FTN technocrat (if for nothing
BF>else since I'm a *C since more than 20 years back) but
BF>also accept democracy where applicable.

Democracy is a word that has been flashed about without anybody
really knowing what the heck they are talking about.  For example,
the USA is not a democracy.  It is a federal republic.  More
specifically, the USA has "a federalist system with a republican
form of government." (Thomas Jefferson)

 LL>> Theodemocracy - A government of rule through God and people.

BF>LOL! Well, theocracy is bad enough, I don't think engaging
BF>the "demos" will make it much worse. I like the idea though!

When George W. Bush first took office I thought him to be
harmless.  Was I ever wrong!  And now a woman by the name of
Michele Bachmann is running for president.  And she is the
Number of the Beast - 666 (the letters of her name add up to
666).  Truly dangerous, I tell you.  And evil.  :)

 LL>> Now do realize that each group of True Believers has their
 LL>> own God. And do realize that my God is bigger than your God...

BF>Ahhh yes. The Z1 gods will always try to engulf the Z2-6 gods.
BF>Have been since the dawn of fidonet. But I think we are slowly
Bf>managing to pass those gods away into their own battle field.

And look at what is happening.  Thor is playing at every movie
theater in America.  MacDonald's is marketing Thor with those
Happy Meals.  Thor merchandise everywhere, including on soft
drink cans.  And then there are the Thor slot machines at the
casino...

--Lee

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 * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)