Text 23079, 174 rader
Skriven 2011-11-25 17:16:25 av Roy Witt (1:387/22)
Kommentar till text 23073 av Nicholas Boel (2420.fidonews)
Ärende: See what I mean...
==========================
25 Nov 11 15:38, Nicholas Boel wrote to Roy Witt:
NB> Re: See what I mean...read the bottom line
NB> By: Roy Witt to Nicholas Boel on Thu Nov 24 2011 11:09 am
>> NB> The only time a non-union company meets our pay scale, is on a
>> NB> prevailing wage job
>> That's odd. I quit a union (IAM) pay-scale job to take a non-union job
>> at the same amount of wages. Their benefit package was identical too.
NB> Again, you're referring to shop hands here.
No, I'm referring to essential trade workers with a sponsored degree in
one trade or another...
NB> I'm referring to the building trades. I quit a non-union HVAC and
NB> sheet metal company after finding out where I was at after 7 years is
NB> pretty much where you stay.
Yesterday I was just talking with a friend's wife about her experiences as
a shop employee in a HVAC shop. She learned the trade from her dad who had
a HVAC business at one time. She was hired by a guy who saw her expert
capabilities in an interview, but it turned out this guy was a cheap
bastard with a bad attitude. He drove her near a nervous breakdown and she
had to quit to keep her sanity and her health.
NB> I started my apprenticeship with a $2/hr paycut only to be making
NB> $10/hr more than what I did there after 3 years. This goes the same
NB> for most carpenters, electricians, plumbers/pipe fitters,
NB> boilermakers and ironworkers.
I had a plumber as a friend in San Diego. He made at least $10/hour more
than I did (25/hr) as a T&D maker. I'd call that just compensation for the
time he spent as an apprentice with a non-union employer.
>> If you work for a company that wants to discourage unionization, they
>> will pay equal to any union shop and offer an equal benefit package as
>> well.
NB> True for shops. In the building trades, it's more of a competition as
NB> far as non-union paying their employees half of what we make, so
NB> they're usually able to WAY underbid the jobs in order to get them.
NB> We have to come in, get the job done in a quarter of the time, with a
NB> quarter of the manpower. It seems we're doing a great job at this so
NB> far. :)
Not here in Texas. What would take a California construction company 6 to
8 months to finish, would take a Texas construction company at least 2, if
not 3 years to do. One in particular began widening of a street here in
town from 2 lanes to 4 lanes for about 1.5 to 2 miles with one existing
bridge that was already 4 lanes wide. All they had to do was add a
pedestrian walkway to the side of the bridge. That was over a year ago
and their projection is late 2013 to finish it.
On the route I used to take to work in California there was a proposed
stretch of 4 lanes seperated by a median that was 8 miles long and had a
few bridges, egress and exit lanes added to an existing freeway and a few
overpasses to construct along the way and it only took them 18 months to
finish, complete.
>> I can only relate to those I have or my friends have experience with.
>> A gas station I worked part time at while an apprentice contracted
>> with the county to provide gasoline and lubrication services...what
>> did Eddie do to get that contract? I don't have a clue. But I know he
>> was in that station a long time and never lost that contract, even
>> though there were multiple stations vying for that contract when it
>> was offered for bid, every year.
NB> ..and this is why my first question to you both was if you were
NB> against _all_ unions. What people don't understand is that all unions
NB> may have the same sway when it comes to election time, but the inner
NB> working are completely different between them.
They're still unions with the same mindset.
NB> So it's a good thing you know the workings of shop unions, since I
NB> don't have any experience with it (granted my brother-in-law just got
NB> a job at P&H, which is a union shop here in WI), and I have my whole
NB> life around building trades (even my step-father was a union
NB> laborer). Comparing notes will clue us in on both sides of the
NB> spectrum.
NB> Granted, gas stations I know nothing about. :)
As you may or may not know, gas stations have evolved over the years from
self service to full service and back again. What was a full service
entity when I was working in them (yes they/I checked your water, oil,
hoses, belts and washed your windshield for free) are not a service
anymore. Today they are money collectors at the point of sale where a
tanker truck unloads their product for them. You get to do what they used
to do, on your own time and also get to pay too much for their product.
>> I was taught by my parents to buy American. That doesn't mean that I
>> had to buy American if I didn't want to, but I want to.
NB> Same here. That's the only way we're going to keep people working
NB> here. What sucks is that the majority of people either don't realize
NB> that, or just plain don't care.
My dad was also a dyed in the wool GM buyer over most of his lifetime.
Until he got senile in his old age, then he switched to Chrysler products,
claiming they were more comfortable. As a mechanic, he didn't understand
it when I told him that his choice of product had less brake surface area
on a heavier vehicle than he was used to driving (Dodge Grand Caravan).
When it was up on the hoist at the dealer for service, he got to take a
look at the cheap brakes that Chrysler used and got the idea that they
must be more efficient, as it was a new vehicle.
They weren't and he died believing in that product.
>> NB> You do know that non-union factories and shops are, just as much,
>> NB> oursourcing their work to other countries, right?
>> Yeup. Micro Switch, the company I apprenticed at has a facility across
>> the border from El Paso in Mexico. My late uncle was sent there,
>> c1968, to facilitate the opening of that plant.
NB> Basically, what I was getting at there was that it's not always the
NB> unions' fault for losing American workers.
I know. The bottom line is doing that.
But the union itself is responsible for making their cause for them.
Especially the UAW, who put too much emphasis in worker pay and benefits
rather than the product they produce. How many new cars have you bought
this year? I haven't bought any because they want far more than they're
actually worth.
>> I think Micro was taking advantage of NAFTA, which was supposed to be
>> advantagess to the employer who wanted cheap labor which in exchange
>> the Mexican people got employment. Something that would have kept the
>> Mexicans in Mexico, had it been a success.
NB> Sure it would have kept the Mexicans in Mexico, as well as other
NB> people in their respective countries. It also was a big player in
NB> Americans losing jobs. Wasn't that signed in by Clinton?
I don't think so, my uncle was there in the 70s or early 80s. He went home
and was complaining about it to my mother (his sister) who was still
working for Micro. She related his story to me...
NB> See? Both sides of politics suck. :)
Carter and Clinton...that's just one side. 8^)
>> Your union probably realizes that asking for more pay and benefits
>> wouldn't do anything to help working conditions for you, plus keep
>> jobs in the country.
NB> We've actually been doing pretty good up until the recession. I
NB> believe we got $2 every year for 5 years (not all on our check, of
NB> course). Then our last contract negotiation we took a freeze, but
NB> didn't lose anything. Can't really complain about that when the
NB> economy got (and is) as bad as it's been.
Meanwhile, my SS benefits have been frozen since the O'bama has taken
office as Prez. SS benefit increases, if any, are based on a COL index,
and according to the index, there hasn't been an increase in cost of
living since 2008 and I won't see one again this year. Which is a joke, as
just gasoline was less than $2.70/gal here before he took office, now it's
over $3.10 after a high of $3.90 earlier this year.
R\%/itt
... Only 5% of all humans have the privilege to live in America.
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