Text 10548, 225 rader
Skriven 2013-10-01 08:02:27 av Lee Lofaso (2:203/2)
  Kommentar till text 10507 av Roy Witt (1:387/22)
Ärende: Putin Blinks
====================
Hello Roy,

 ak>> Truman could say "We've made a diabolical bomb, and we are going
 ak>> to burn alive 200 thousand people from two big Japanese cities.
 ak>> Isn't it great news?"

 RW>> Of course, Truman had no idea of the destruction the bomb could do
 RW>> at this time.

 ak>> But he did have this idea at the moment of ordering to bomb, because
 ak>> he was aware of the result of the nuclear test.

RW>Not! Tested over a desert area with no buildings, nor any people in
RW>the vacinity doesn't show any indication of what it will do in such
RW>a situation.

All a test can do is give a degree of probability if a device will
work as planned.

 ak>> But we know Truman's reaction only -- he liked the results of the
 ak>> first bomb so much that he decided to drop the second one.

 RW>> Truman didn't know the true power of the 1st bomb (July 1945) until
 RW>> they dropped the 2nd bomb on August 6, 1945 over Hiroshima. The 1st
 RW>> bomb was exploded at White Sands, New Mexico the month before.

 ak>> So, how do you say that Truman didn't know the A-bomb destructive
 ak>> power after the testing had been done?

RW>AFAIK, he read a report by observers at the test site. No first hand
RW>knowledge of his own.

The military conducted the test.  The president would have been
given a report.  Decisions would have been made based on a number
of factors, including the report dealing with the testing of the
atomic bomb.

 ak>> It was exactly the testing had shown the destructiveness of the
 ak>> A-bomb.

RW>It raised some dust, blew a strong wind and had a plume of smoke
RW>12 miles high. Nothing more.

Nobody knew what effects the atomic bomb would have had on a populated
city until such an event took place.  As such, one could only guess.

 ak>> The first bombing on Hiroshima was another confirmation, before
 ak>> dropping the second bomb.

RW>The 1st bomb (which was the 2nd bomb) on Hiroshima was another
RW>test of a 'different' type of atom bomb. There were two types in
RW>exisitance at the time.

Both worked, one a bit better than the other due to when detonated.

 ak>> So, your argument is poor.

Actually, your argument, up to this point, is basically on target.
However, the rest of your argument (below) sucks.

RW>Not at all. President Truman wrote in his diary that he had ordered
RW>the bomb dropped on a "purely military" target, so that "military
RW>objectives and soldiers and sailors are the target and not women and
RW>children."

The military objective (defeating Japan's military) had already been
accomplished.  The other objective (obtaining Japan's surrender) had
also been accomplished.  However, President Truman refused to accept
Japan's offer to surrender, choosing to continue the war that was over
weeks before, dropping atomic bombs on populated Japanese cities whose
only crime was housing living human beings.

You see, President Truman was a very sick man.  Interning gooks was
not good enough for "Give 'em hell, Harry".  Deporting gooks was not
good enough for him, either.  Shooting them would have been too kind,
but incinerating them in the flash of a fireball was perfect.

But that was not why President Truman atomized hundreds of thousands
of gooks.  He had to show the Russians what would happen to them if
they continued their invasion of Japan.  Even after the Russians took
notice, stopping in their tracks, President Truman held a meeting with
his joint chiefs of staff to decide his future options.  And had Truman
listened to the advice of General Curtis LeMay, dozens of cities in the
former USSR would have been atomized.

Oh what fun it would have been had George C. Wallace won the presidency
ih 1968, with his vice president being none other than Curtis LeMay ...

RW>The official directive to bomb Japan didn't include the above and it
RW>came from the Secretary of War, not the President.

President Truman had a sign on his desk that read -

                "THE BUCK STOPS HERE"

The decision to atomize Hiroshima was made by President Harry S Truman.
The decision to atomize Nagasaki was made by President Harry S Truman.

There were others who carried out the President's orders.  But it was
the President himself who made the decisions, and gave the orders.

 ak>> Actually, the matter is that theoretically an A-bomb was invented a
 ak>> good time before the WW2, and everybody knew of it. It was not a
 ak>> matter of complexity to do it, it was the matter of technology.

RW>Theory is always nice, but it isn't implemented without trial and
RW>error.  Einstein had plenty of atomic theory, but no experience in
RW>the technology in splitting one.

It is assumed that Israel has at least a few dozen nuclear bombs,
even though Israel has never even tested a single one.

 ak>> In 1938 it was discovered that an atom of uranium divides when
 ak>> stricken by a neutron.  In 1939 Curie told all the world (like an
 ak>> idiot) that every fusion produces many neutrons. Since then, every
 ak>> dog (from the world of science :)) knew that these two facts could be
 ak>> used for making a very powerful bomb.

RW>Theory is nice.

Israeli scientists already know what works and what does not work.
The same can be said of Iranian scientists ...

 ak>> Of course, Russian scientists knew about it, too. I repeat, it was a
 ak>> matter of time and technology to make an A-bomb first. It so happened
 ak>> that almost all atomic scientists had gathered in the US before WW2
 ak>> and they were whipped up by news that Hitler tried to make the bomb
 ak>> too.

RW>Both Germany and Japan were working on the bomb. Hitler's scientists
RW>deliberately delayed the development. Japan was on the wrong track,
RW>but they would have eventually had the bomb and there was no doubt
RW>that they'd use it.

Germany did not limit itself in the development of the atomic bomb.
How close Japan was in developing an atomic bomb is unknown.  However,
it is probably closer than you think, given how desperate we were in
becoming the first, even after Germany had surrendered.

 ak>> Hitler tried to make and use an A-bomb because he was Hitler.

RW>Just another dictator with dreams of ruling the world, just like
RW>Stalin.

Had it not been for WWII, Stalin would have been deposed by his
own people.  However, due to Hitler being an idiot, the Russian
people rallied behind the Georgian, allowing Stalin to become
the hero he had always wanted to be.

 ak>> The US did use it against civilians,

RW>See above.

Hiroshima was an easy target, populated by friendly civilians
who loved waving at airplanes.  Nagasaki was also an easy target,
populated by friendly civilians.  However, nobody was waving their
arms and hands at airplanes anymore, except to say "Go away!  Go
away!"  In Japanese, of course.  Or maybe they were just extending
their middle fingers ...

 ak>> and more of that, it many times made plans to bomb the USSR first.

RW>That's bullshit.

The US did have first-strike capability.  General Curtis LeMay
wanted President Truman to order an atomic bombing campaign of the
USSR, as our airplanes would have been invincible and the population
below completely defenseless ...

 ak>> Besides, I still don't know a single the USSR's plan to attack the US
 ak>> first with A-boms.

RW>Of course you don't.

The former USSR did not have a first-strike capability.
The former USSR did not even have a single atomic bomb.

RW>You were/aren't privy to such information.

There is no question that Josef Stalin would have loved to have
the atomic bomb at the same time as we did.  But such was not the
case in the closing days of WWII.

RW>Putin might know, since he was a KGB agent for so many years during
RW>the cold war.

One does not have to be a former head of the KGB to know the
former USSR eventually learned how to build atomic, and later
nuclear, weapons.

RW>Meanwhile, America put missles in silos and pointed them at the USSR
RW>because there were missles in silos there, pointed at the USA...not
RW>to mention the years of B-52s flying the northern hemisphere with
RW>orders to drop Abombs on the USSR, should they launch their missles.

We built and mainatined a first-strike capability as a means of
protecting ourselves from aggression by others.  Fortunately for
us, and the rest of the world, no orders were given by our leaders
to nuke the former USSR (or any other country).

RW>Meanwhile, the USSR built a huge radar system that was so RF dirty,
RW>it interupted communications all over the world like a woodpecker
RW>bird pecking on the atmosphere.

JFK polluted the waters of the South Pacific by dropping huge rings
at the bottom of the sea in order to keep the lights from going out
in Hawaii due to nuclear testing.  Those rings have only recently
been removed, probably due to protests made by GREENPEACE or SAVE
THE WHALES.

Nuclear testing had really gotten out of hand, some military planners
wanting to conduct nuclear tests in space, other military planners
wanting to nuke the Moon, etc.  But it was when we nuked Mississippi
that took the cake.

Nuking Mississippi once would have been bad enough, but we had to
do it twice (some folks claim we did it thrice).  The government tried
its best to cover it all up, but the creeks and waters around the site
were too messed up and radioactive for people to knoq better.  Good
hunting in those parts, but I'd be wary of the fish.

--Lee

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