Text 13162, 131 rader
Skriven 2014-03-26 17:09:00 av Bill McGarrity (5504.2fidonews)
  Kommentar till text 13136 av alexander koryagin (2:5020/2140.2)
Ärende: Re: War
===============
-=> alexander koryagin wrote to Bill McGarrity <=-

Hiya Alexander...

 ak> I read your message from  25.03.2014 15:08
 ak> about Re: War.

  ak>> There is no need for many words: the Crimea is Motherland for
  ak>> them, their parents, grandparents. It is very difficult to leave
  ak>> it. Why should they leave their Motherland?

  BM> A simple fact remains then, if they considered Crimea the
  BM> Motherland and Crimea was part of the Ukraine, then they should
  BM> consider themselves Ukrainian first.

 ak> Well, suppose, the history repeated itself once more, and the Ukraine
 ak> (before the 2014 events) has gifted the Crimea to Turkey, as a sign of
 ak> friendship etc. According to your logic the people of Crimea must
 ak> consider themselves Turks? Am I right?


Depending on the amount of generations that were seen during the initial
gifting and the time of annexation is the issue.  Naturally, those who were
born in Crimea after the "gifting" would be considered Turkish citizens of
Crimean descent.  Just as I am 2nd generation here in the US but am of Irish
Descent.  I was born here and consider myself as a citizen of the US but
effectively, my motherland is Ireland. Same theory.


 ak> <skipped>
  ak>> Ukraine in 1954. Of course, nobody asked Russian people living in
  ak>> the Crimea. It is a old Soviet crime, but it doesn't mean that the
  ak>> Russian inhabitants of the Crimea forgot about it.

  BM> And it took 60 years? That's the better part of 3 generations
  BM> who've lived under Ukraine law. Granted, their heritage is still of
  BM> Russian descent but being they've been technically been born within
  BM> the Ukraine proper, doesn't that make them Ukrainian? Just as you
  BM> stated, Khrushchev was a Ukrainian so therefore anyone born in the
  BM> territory must also be. Can't have it both ways.

 ak> Why didn't you not tell it Albanians living in Serbia? They should
 ak> consider themselves Serbs, too. ;-)

Again, if they've lived in Serbia for over 3 genrations then their country is
Serbia, but alas, we both know that's not the case since the split occured in
1991.  The initial creation of Yugoslavia after WWI should have never occured
and IMO. A minimum of three separate countries should have been established.   

 ak> <skipped>
  BM>> Yes, I know they showed no affiliation with Russian military but
  BM>> lets not be blind to the fact they were most likely armed by the
  BM>> Russian High Command, whoever that is, and led by trained military
  BM>> men. Not your typical population for an area known as the "Riviera
  BM>> of the Russian elite".

  ak>> I don't know what was "most likely", but the Crimea militia
  ak>> captured a lot of weapon by itself. I have already told you the
  ak>> reason -- the Ukrainian army, first of all, was _PARALYZED_ by
  ak>> Yanukovivh: he strictly prohibited it to shot people and
  ak>> participate in the events. That's why they refused to shot people
  ak>> who surrounded and captured their military bases and equipment.
  ak>> And, of course, they didn't want to shed blood by themselves, too.
  ak>> In the same manner many weapon got in the hands of the Maidan
  ak>> militia in the western Ukraine.

  BM> Your statements may have been true during the initial uprising in
  BM> Kiev, but he was long gone by the time of the - invasion- of
  BM> Crimea.

 ak> Yanukovich had appeared on public, from time to time, constantly
 ak> repeating that the events in Kiev is a state coup, he, Yanukovich, is
 ak> still President of the Ukraine and its Commander in Chief. He told the
 ak> Ukrainian Army do not obey the orders from Kiev. Yanukovich came to
 ak> power legitimately, when more than a half of the Ukrainians had voted
 ak> for him. The Ukrainian army had meningitis' headache at that time and
 ak> did not know what to do in this fucking situation.

The fact that Yanukovich was in exile would normally support he was no longer
in control and the new government was. I'm not saying the perceived actions in
Kiev were right but things do work in mysterious ways in Europe at times. The
term you used as Crimea was gifted can be taken within the realm of symantics. 
From 1954 to 1991 I would say yes, to a point being the Ukraine was still part
of the Soviet Union.  After 1991, then all bets were off as then became part of
independent Ukraine. In researching, I feel as if it was the Russian Federation
that were gifted Sevastopol in 1997's treaty, not the other way around.   

  BM> Could the reasoning be the "militia" you speak of were
  BM> trained on Russian soil for just this purpose and when thinking in
  BM> hindsight, those on the Ukraine bases kept level heads rather than
  BM> starting an all out war? Putin took a gamble along with the rest of
  BM> the politico knowing with the unrest in Ukraine proper it would be
  BM> the perfect coverup for reacclimation. It succeeded, but I'm sure
  BM> he's walking on eggshells when it comes to Eastern Ukraine if he
  BM> thinks he'll be able to duplicate his success there.

 ak> As for me, I believe, that nobody in the world could foresee that the
 ak> things would go on in such a way. All the things that Maidan opposition
 ak> did were foolish, crazy, unprofessional and destroying. They themselves
 ak> did not understand what could happen and what a gin appeared from the
 ak> lamp.

You're exactly right but as I stated above, the way it happened seems to be the
status quo in the eastern bloc of Europe. Things just explode. As an
independent country, the Ukraine had a right to determine its own destiny
without interference by Putin.  If after the dust settled, Crimea wanted to
hold an election observed by neutral parties, then I don't think anyone in the
world would have an issue with that.  Throwing petrol on a fire and expecting
it to extingish is what was done in Crimea.  Will it eventually go out, sure it
will but why not let it simmer rather than turning the world upside down. 
Those in Crimea who thought annexation by Russia was a good idea better
understand their everyday lives still rest within those in the north.  Electric
and water are necessities and although I doubt they will sever those utilties
totally, it's certaining going to have a harsh effect till Russia builds an
inferstructure.

Be well....


Bill

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