Text 29812, 125 rader
Skriven 2015-12-27 22:35:33 av Lee Lofaso (2:203/2)
  Kommentar till text 29703 av Björn Felten (2:203/2)
Ärende: Rules of Echomail
=========================
Hello Björn,

 LL>> People often confuse patriotism with nationalism.
 LL>> The two are not the same, and mean different things.

 BF> I disagree.

In what way?

 BF> They are pretty much the same.

The two words have similar connotations, but have different meanings.
Hence the confusion.

 BF> But what it all boils down to is that every single war that humans have
 BF> fought has been caused by disagreements between a few power crazed people
 BF> -- politicians, emperors, kings, whatever.

War, in its truest and purest sense, is the exchange of human
lives for real estate.  But all wars, without exception, are
economic.  Even if different covers are used to hide that fact.

That is not the same thing as patriotism or nationalism.
Although it can be a part of one or the other.

War is an act of aggression, rather than non-aggression.
It can be violent, or non-violent.  But it is still aggression.

 BF> If those power crazed people would have been forced to fight it all out by
 BF> themselves, can you imagine how many millions of people that would have
 BF> been saved?

Old men getting young boys to fight their battles in order
to gain riches for themselves is what it is all about.  But
that is not the same as patriotism or nationalism.  Old men
will use any excuse to get what they want.  They will tell
any lie to anybody it takes.  And they will repeat that lie
as often as it takes to get enough people to believe the
lie as truth.

 BF> Whenever your politicians demand that you send the prime of your youth to
 BF> fight for your nation (meaning for them to get what they want) please,
 BF> object vividly. Like many of the prime of the US people did when they were
 BF> required to go and get killed in a useless war -- sorry, police action --
 BF> in Vietnam.

There has never been a "just" war in the entire history
of mankind.  It is not just the US that is at fault.  Other
nations have made the same mistake.  Including several in
Europe.  And those mistakes keep getting repeated, over
and over and over again. It is as if man never learns.
Not from his own mistakes, and not from the mistakes of
others.

 BF> Those who fled to Canada and Europe survived and many of them later on
made
 BF> a huge difference to mankind, rather than becoming fertilizer in Vietnam
 BF> bamboo forests.

Those loopholes have been closed today.  Even the
conscientious objector route has been closed, for the
most part.  Muhammad Ali was stripped of his boxing
title and jailed for his beliefs, convicted but then
having his conviction overturned by the courts.  His
defense would fall on deaf ears today, and never been
allowed to box again, much less regain his boxing
championship that was taken from him.

To qualify for conscientious objector status, you
have to be against all wars, without exception,
including defending yourself against invaders of
your own home.  So, self-defense is no defense.
If somebody tries to take your life, you have to
let them kill you in order to qualify.  Got it?

 BF> War is absolute stupidity -- only politicians are stupid enough to think
 BF> it's a solution to anything. Only politician followers accept that folly
 BF> and goes along with it.

War makes money for certain people.  Otherwise,
there would be no war.  Somebody benefits.  That
is how things work.  At least in the real world.

Somebody gains at somebody else's expense.

Do you think Saddam Hussein was going to let
George W. Bush get what he wanted by simply
stepping out of the way?  "Sure, George. You
can have it. Just come on over, and take as
much as you like."

Maybe George thought our troops would be greeted
by Iraqis showering them with flowers.  Was he in
for a rude surprise.  As well as our troops.

Halliburton got what it wanted - megariches.
GWB got what he wanted - a second term in office.
What about those soldiers who served in Iraq?
Did they gain anything (aside from prosthetic
arms and legs)?

Back to what I was saying earlier -

I can be a patriotic Fidonetter in the sense that
I defend the rights of other Fidonetters without ever
claiming the need to uphold the virtues of some strange
entity (such as the NAB) that I may or may not agree
with.

Nationalism is about taking pride in something or
another that many have no control over (such as the
NAB).

Now do you understand the difference?

Identifying the root, or root cause, is what comes next
in this discussion.  Understanding this can win me, or you,
or whoever finds it, The Nobel Peace Prize.

See you in Oslo.  :)

--Lee

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