Text 30832, 364 rader
Skriven 2016-01-23 01:57:27 av Lee Lofaso (2:203/2)
  Kommentar till text 30814 av Joel Meyer (2:2490/3045.11)
Ärende: the bible and culture etc.
==================================
Hello Joel,

 JM> reading all this mails so far I decided to give some thoughts. Sorry, it's
a
 JM> bit long...

Nonsense!  No message is ever too long!  Too short, maybe.
But never too long ...

 LL>> In the Book of Joshua, the Israelites attack the city of Jericho,
 LL>> and seek to kill every living thing they find.  Men, women, children,
 LL>> ox, sheep, etc.  It was a genocide, plain and simple.  And they did
 LL>> it because their god told them to.  No other reason.

 JM> Do I understand correctly that you want to blame god for that?

Depends on which god, and whose god.

 JM> A mail before you said that the Jewish did what they was told to in the
law,
 JM> the law they get from _Moses_.

That's right.  Before Moses came along there was no law.
And with no law there could be no Jews.  So Moses went and
freed the slaves, taking them all into the open desert.
Then he went up the mountain and saw god in a burning bush.
And it was this burning bush that gave Moses the law, as
well as instructions on how to use it.

The law was written on stone tablets by the burning bush.
Moses took these stone tablets to the people in the valley
below.  But he got mad when he found the people worshipping
a golden calf rather than paying any attention to anything
he had to say.  So what did he do?  Moses took them stone
tablets and smashed them into smithereens.  The tablets,
not the people.  And then the people took notice.  But
not for long.  They just yawned, and then continued their
activities, slaughtering the golden calf and having steaks
for supper.

Missing out on supper, Moses went back up the mountain to
talk to the burning bush.  He needed advice as to what to do
next.  So the burning bush told Moses not to worry.  Another
set of stone tablets was made, and Moses took the new set
down below.  The people, having already been well-fed, were
in a much better mood to listen at that point.

Feeling bad about not inviting Moses to supper, the people
gathered the stones from the first set of tablets and placed
them inside the ark of the covenant.  Or did that come later?
Kind of hard to tell sometimes, given that Moses was/is a
time traveller.

 JM> That is what you wrote but that's not correct.

The Bible does not lie.

 JM> The law was given by god _through_ Moses.

Which god?  Whose god?  The Egyptian god?  The Hebrew god?
Some other god?  The Jews were not Jews until after Moses gave
them the law.  So it could not have been the Jewish god.

 JM> That is just a little inconsistency in your mails...

My god is bigger than your god, my god is bigger than yours ...

Point is, every culture has its own god(s).  The Egyptians had
their gods.  The Hebrew people had their gods (yes, more than one).
There were many tribes, each with their own gods.

 JM> The other thought is: If god is god, can you blame him?

What kind of god would allow such suffering?  What kind
of god would command a people to slaughter every living thing
that inhabited a city?

 JM> I mean, who are you?

The god who commanded the Israelites to slaughter every living
thing that inhabited the city of Jericho is the most devilish of
all gods that ever was.  A special place in hell is reserved for
that particular god, and for those who worship it.

 JM> Who am I? We are just humans and god is god...

The god who created us?  Not all humans are such devils.
At least, I hope not.

 LL>> The Jewish people are worshipping the wrong god.

 JM> definitely not true.

It is the same god that ordered the full-scale slaughter of
every living thing in the city of Jericho.  Every man, woman,
and child, along with beasts such as ox and sheep.  You are
talking about genocide.  A crime against humanity.

 JM> In fact there is only one god.

Which one might that be?  The Jewish god?  The Arab god?
The Chinese god?  There are so many I have truly lost count ...

 JM> So you may only ask: Do they worship the true god?

Which god might that be?  As humans, we tend to worship
the wrong god, no matter how hard we try to do otherwise.

God (regardless of whatever name he/she/it is given) has no need
for us to love or worship him/her.  In fact, he/she does not want
our love.

Isn't it enough the creator has made us in his/her image?
Why is it we are so adamant we must make him/her in our image?

 LL>> Judas Iscariot sold Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

 LL>> The going price for an adult male was 50 pieces of silver.
 LL>> The going price for an adult female was 30 pieces of silver.

 JM> That is just from on book of the bible. When you just want so look at the
 JM> pentateuch then what does Jesus and Judas do here? So if you tell us about
 JM> Jesus and Judas you have to look at the whole bible, not just excerpts.

The Jewish people use only the Torah, rarely going outside
the first five books (pentateuch) of their own scriptures.

Jesus and the NT is viewed as taboo, those writings not
being part of the Jewish religion.  The few Jews who do read
the NT are usually considered as being heretics.

The priests who gave Judas 30 pieces of silver were Jews.
They went by the Law of Moses in order to come up with the
price.  Even today, the Jews continue to use the same Law.

 JM> So just compare: Joseph was  sold for twenty pieces of silver (Gen 37:28)
 JM> and in Exodus 21:32: If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner
 JM> shall give to their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be
 JM> stoned.

Joseph was enslaved in Egypt, by those outside of his faith,
and before Moses came along to give the Hebrews the Law.

Jesus was never enslaved, but was bought by Jews from a Jew,
for a price established under The Law as given by god through
Moses.

 JM> And we read in Philippians 2:7 that Jesus became "the form of a servant".

Paul was once an obedient Jew named Saul, until he got knocked
off his horse on the road to Damascus.  That is when he saw the
light, and started writing letters to his followers.  But the
Jews disinherited him, making him persona non grata ...

 JM> In fact the word "thirty" is 106 times in the ESV, 9 times it's about
money.
 JM> So you can't just take a number you found somewhere in the bible.

Context matters.  The NT is not part of the Jewish religion.
Judaism and Christianity are two very different faiths.  Judaism
is a very worldly religion, but looks backward, to the past.
Christianity is other-worldly, looking forward, to the future.

 LL>> The Christian people are worshipping the wrong god.

 LL>> And Judas did betray Jesus with a kiss.
 LL>> Not a handshake.

 JM> The Christians do _not_ worship the wrong god (see above).

Do they?

http://www.nobeliefs.com/washingtonnews/JesusGirl.htm

Early Christians, up until the 4th century, did depict Jesus
as a woman in paintings and sculpture.  And upon a close examination
of the texts, it makes one wonder as to who he/she truly was ...

 JM> Judas did betray Jesus with a kiss, that is true. But a kiss does not mean
 JM> the same thing to us.

A passionate kiss, with a warm embrace, late at night, in a garden ...

Now, if Jesus had a penis, that would make him (?) a homosexual.
And I do not think Jesus and his/her followers were a bunch of gays
and lesbians putting on a freak show for the crowds.

 JM> The Jews kissed the Torah, the Muslims kiss the kaaba, children kiss their
 JM> parents (mother _and_ father).

They do not do such things in secret.  Or late at night,
in a garden, with confidantes keeping a look-out for intruders ...

 JM> It is a completely different culture and it's hard to understand for
people
 JM> from other cultures.

Israel is/was a theocracy, not a democracy.  At the time of
Jesus, the land of Palestine was under Roman occupation, but
so were many other lands.  The people who lived in the area
spoke Aramaic, not Latin, and had their own customs and
traditions.

If Jesus was a man, and having an affair with another man, what
do you think the reaction would be if he and his lover would be
found out?

 JM> So the kiss does _not_ tell us that Jesus was a woman, it just tells us
that
 JM> the relation between Jesus and his twelve was deeper than just two men
 JM> meeting in a street or so.

I am sure that Jesus loved Judas, and vice versa.  I am also
sure that Jesus loved all the other apostles, as they loved her.
Was it a jealous spat?  Is that what prompted Judas to betray
Jesus?

The episode at the last supper seems to suggest just that.
Only Jesus did not specify exactly who it would be who would
betray her.

 JM> And you can not change his gender because of this idea. In the whole bible
 JM> Jesus is male.

Are you sure about that?  Try reading Revelation 1:13 with
your eyes wide open rather than shut tight.

 LL>> Yes, Jesus was a woman.
 LL>> Definitely a woman.
 LL>> With real tits.
 LL>> Not just long hair.
 LL>> Actually it was nappy hair.
 LL>> But lets not bother with details.

 JM> (see above) Jesus was no woman, definitely not. So he didn't have tits.

Early Christians depicted her with tits.  That makes her
either a true hermaphrodite or a woman.  Take your pick.

 JM> If he has long hair - I don't know. In fact he was man.

The bible forbids men to have long hair.  That would seem
to suggest that Jesus was indeed a woman beyond doubt.

 LL>> Read your bible, it's all in there.

 JM> Of course, I can say that, too.

Everything under the sun is in the bible, if you look close enough.

 JM> The bible is god's word.

Before there was a bible was the word.
Before there was anything at all was the word.
So what is the word?  Where did it come from?
Did it come from nothing?  As far as I know,
nothing from nothing is nothing.  And yet we
like to think we can get something for nothing.
Why is that?

 JM> Sadly most people don't read it.

Most people prefer to be told.  Up until the 19th century
very few people could read and write.  I seriously doubt that
Jesus could read and write, although I do admit she was quite
remarkable and intelligent.  Assuming she was a real person,
and not a fiction.

 JM> And for studying the bible you should look at the people in there.

There are lots of different books in the bible, written by
various authors, in multiple languages.  Which bibles, of
various times, and for different audiences.

The Jewish people have their own "bible" that completely
leaves out all the books of the NT.

Christians use a variety of different bibles, some with 66
books, others with 72 books, others with 77 or some other wild
number of books.

And the translations, or rather transliterations, are also
different.

We do not know if Jesus could read and/or write.  As a child
I am sure that Jesus' mother told her bedtime stories, so she
was familiar with the people depicted in Jewish scriptures.
If you read the gospel accounts, note that Jesus asks others
what the scriptures say, rather than reading or writing herself.

There is one instance at synagogue where Jesus "reads" from
a scroll, but that could clearly have been from memory as the
text was in Hebrew, a dead language used only for religious
ceremony and purpose.  She stops in mid-sentence and walks
out, with a very angry crowd following so as to throw her
off a cliff.

 JM> What culture did they have?

It was a theocracy, under Roman occupation.

 JM> What did they think?

They didn't think.  They just did.  Their religious leaders
told them what to do.  So they did.  No thinking necessary.

 JM> How did they live?

The men had jobs building the temple.  The women stayed at
home preparing food and making babies.  When the money ran out
to build the temple, unemployment skyrocketed.  And then there
was a revolt against Rome.  Jerusalem was sacked, the temple
was destroyed, and women cried for the loss of their babies.

 JM> This is because Jesus told so many parables: People can understand them.

Not just any people can understand them.

 JM> May I ask how long do you read the bible?

Never.

 JM> Do you believe in god and his son?

One must doubt to believe.

Jesus does not believe in God.

If she is who she claims to be, then the above statement must be true.

Who has seen the face of god?
And lived to tell about it?

Moses claimed to have seen the face of god.
But only in the form of a burning bush.
Was his god the living god, the one true god?
Some might want to question that, given the
nature of what happened at Jericho.

I cannot imagine Jesus condoning such a thing.
Murdering innocent men, women, and children.
In cold blood.  Along with ox and sheep, and
who knows what else.

Jesus' virtues were completely different from
the god that Moses depicted.  Jesus' god was
something else.  A god who practiced humility,
modesty, chastity, patience, compassion, and
love.  She did this throughout her public
ministry, constantly opposing male agency.
These are the virtues of womanhood.

Think about it -

Male Power Model: aggressive, domineering, objectifying

Real (Jesus) Power: openness, vulnerability, love

No wonder she had to die.

--Lee

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