Text 2245, 139 rader
Skriven 2009-02-08 02:33:03 av Ed Hulett (1:123/789.0)
   Kommentar till text 2241 av Ross Sauer (1:123/789.0)
Ärende: Mormons and racism
==========================
Ross Sauer -> Ed Hulett wrote:
 RS> "Ed Hulett -> God Dan" <1:123/789.0> wrote in
 RS> news:6294$HOLYSMOKE@JamNNTPd:

 GD>>>> In fact, racism is reinforced in your book.

 EH>>>> You don't know what you are talking about.

 GD>>>    There is a reason why one man is born black and with other
 GD>>> disadvantages,
 GD>>> while another is born white with great advantages.  The reason
 EH>>   is that GD> we once
 GD>>> had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or
 EH>>   less, to the GD> laws that were given us there.  Those who were
 EH>>   faithful in all
 EH>> things there
 GD>>> [pre-existence] received greater blessings here, and those who
 EH>>   were not GD> faithful received less.  . .  . There were no neutrals
 EH>>   in the war in GD> Heaven.
 GD>>> All took sides either with Christ or with Satan.  Every man had
 EH>>   his agency GD> there, and men receive rewards here based upon their
 EH>>   actions there,
 EH>> just as
 GD>>> they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body.
 EH>> The Negro,
 GD>>> evidently, is receiving the reward he merits.

 EH>> You just quoted (without attribute) the words of a man and not the
 EH>> words of any scripture. The above is *NOT* and never has been part of
 EH>> sacred LDS scripture or teachings.

 RS>  From your own damn "holy" book, Ed.

The above isn't from any holy book.

 RS> And if you still deny that your church *WAS* a bunch of racist pigs
 RS> after seeing this, it'll prove that you are a fundy liar.

Here we go with the name calling.

 RS> Remember back in the "good old days" in this echo, Laurie (pronounced
 RS> Larry) Appleton, who lived in Australia?

What about him?

 RS> He was a die-hard lying young-Earth creationist.
 RS> And every time he had his "facts' debunked, he'd bring them right back.

Good for him.

 RS> 1 Nephi 11:8 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And
 RS> I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto the tree which my
 RS> father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding
 RS> of all beauty; and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the
 RS> driven snow.

Nephi is describing the tree og Life here.

 RS> 1 Nephi 11:13 And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of
 RS> Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.

He is describing her purity here.

 RS> 1 Nephi 12:23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled
 RS> in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full
 RS> of idleness and all manner of abominations.

Where does it say their skin was black or that they became a different race?

 (Joe Smith calls dark skinned people ugly, filthy, lazy, and perverts.)

Cite!

 RS> 1 Nephi 13:15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the
 RS> Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their
 RS> inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and
 RS> beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

Where's the racism?

 RS> 2 Nephi 5:21 For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him,
 RS> that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white,
 RS> and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing
 RS> unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon
 RS> them.

Again, where's the racism? There is no indication they changed race.

 RS> 2 Nephi 30:6 And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is
 RS> a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness
 RS> shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass
 RS> away among them, save they shall be a pure white (1830 edition) and a
 RS> delightsome people.

It doesn't say "white" in any of my copies. "[S]cales of darckness" means they
began to see the light.

 RS> Jacob 3:8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins
 RS> that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought
 RS> with them before the throne of God.

Racism? Where?

 RS> Alma 3:6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark
 RS> which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of
 RS> their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who
 RS> consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy
 RS> men.

Laman and Lemuel were Nephi's older brothers. They were *NOT* another race.

 RS> 3 Nephi 2:15 And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became
 RS> white like unto the Nephites.

And?

 RS> Mormon 5:15 And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe
 RS> his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this
 RS> people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a
 RS> loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been
 RS> amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this
 RS> because of their unbelief and idolatry.

Again, it is not describing another race.

Ed

-- 
"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is
to fill the world with fools." --Herbert Spencer

"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt."
--Thomas Jefferson

Linux User# 416016
Linux Machine# 385029

--- Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105)
 * Origin: Fidonet Via Newsreader - http://www.easternstar.info (1:123/789.0)