Text 722, 419 rader
Skriven 2007-02-12 00:04:07 av Ed Hulett (1:123/789.0)
    Kommentar till text 721 av ROSS SAUER (1:123/140)
Ärende: Christian fascists?
===========================
ROSS SAUER -> ED HULETT wrote:
 RS> ED HULETT said to ROSS SAUER...

 ->>>> You haven't a clue what fascism is, do you?

 RS>>> And you haven't a clue as to what theocracy is.

 EH>> That is where you are mistaken.

 RS>>> Just look at Saudi Arabia and Iran.
 RS>>> BOTH theocracies, and both fascist-type governments.

 EH>> What makes you think a Christian theocracy would be the same as an
 EH>> Islamic theocracy?

 RS> Two sides of the same coin.

Not even close.

Islam is enfoirced by the sword.

The very founding of this country proves there is no comparisan between Islam
and Christianity.

 RS>>> But let's take a look at back here in the US.

 EH>> Okay, let's look.

 RS>>> Very powerful figures in the U.S. ruling class are proponents of
 EH>> this

 EH>> The US "ruling class?" Are you serious?

 RS> There are a few in the US who feel they are the "ruling class."
 RS> The Kennedy and Bush families come to mind.

Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

Can't you stay focused?

 RS>>> program. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, one of Bush�s
 EH>> favorites and
 RS>>> possible replacement for Chief Justice Rehnquist, has written
 RS>>> that "government...derives its moral authority from God. It is
 EH>> the �minister of
 RS>>> God� with powers to �revenge,� to �execute wrath,�
 EH>> including even wrath by
 RS>>> the sword."

 EH>> Good grief. Scalia didn't replace Rehnquist and the USSC does not
 EH>> legislate. Your copy and paste is from an old screed.

 RS> Is Scalia still on the Supreme Court?

Yes, but he's a strict constructionist.

 RS>>> In a speech at Christian fundamentalist Bob Jones University,
 RS>>> former Attorney General John Ashcroft declared, "Unique among
 EH>> the nations, America
 RS>>> recognized the source of our character as being godly and
 RS>>> eternal, not being civic and temporal....we have no King but
 RS>>> Jesus." He called the separation of church and state "a wall of
 RS>>> religious oppression."

 EH>> The so-called "wall of seperation of church and state" is a limit on
 EH>> government alone. The actual words show this to be true, "Congress
 EH>> shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
 EH>> prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

 EH>> The way you idiots want it is to repress any and all outward
 EH>> expressions of religios faith primarily from Christians.

 RS> That's bullshit and you know it.

No, it's the truth.

 RS> What we want is the ending of coercive and government-funded religion.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

What "coercive and government-funded religion?"

 EH>> You point at Saudi Arabia and ask if we want a theocracy like their's
 EH>> while ignoring the differences between Christianity and Islam.

 RS>>> A leading organizer of this movement writes that "Christians
 RS>>> have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy
 RS>>> responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ � to have
 RS>>> dominion in civil structures, just as in every other aspect of
 RS>>> life and godliness.... World conquest. That�s what Christ has
 RS>>> commissioned us to accomplish." (George Grant, The Changing of
 RS>>> the Guard, Biblical Principles for Political Action , pp. 50- 51

 EH>> Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

 EH>> Who is George Grant?

 RS> "Christian" author.

So, he's not entitled to his own opinion?

 RS>>> Falwell Wants Dominionist In White House

 EH>> Falwell! Boo!

 RS> So John McCain isn't kissing up to Falwell?

I couldn't care less what McCain does with Falwell. I'm not afraid of Falwell
in the least. He has very little influence, if any.

 RS>>> Reuters yesterday had a very interesting look at Christian
 RS>>> dominionist Jerry Falwell and his ongoing campaign to create a
 RS>>> theocratic state in America.

 EH>> Good grief, you are obsessed with Falwell and Robertson. They don't
 EH>> have the political power you try to give them.

 RS> They have influence.

With a minority.

 RS> Right now James Dobson and his "Focus on the Family" have the upper hand
 RS> in political influence among the GOP.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

So, you are against morality? Family? Treating others as you'd have them treat
you?

 RS>>> DALLAS (Reuters) - His influence may be diminished but his zeal
 RS>>> is undaunted. Evangelist Jerry Falwell is on a mission to keep a
 RS>>> like-minded Republican in the White House and get at least one
 RS>>> more conservative judge on the Supreme Court.

 EH>> So, to you idiots, a Republican is the same as a theocrat?

 RS> See above?
 RS> "...keep a like-minded Republican in the White House..."

Like minded doesn't equate to theocrat.

 RS>>> Despite his years in the trenches of America's culture wars,
 EH>> Falwell -- who
 RS>>> founded the Moral Majority political movement in 1979 and helped
 EH>> propel the
 RS>>> rise of the religious right -- said a major victory in his
 RS>>> broader crusade to restore the country's moral righteousness has
 RS>>> so far eluded him.

 EH>> ___________________________________^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 EH>> ^

 RS>>> With abortion still legal, prayer banned in public schools and
 RS>>> pornography rife, he sees a long struggle ahead. For now, he is
 RS>>> focusing on voter registration drives and rallying the faithful
 RS>>> with his eyes on the twin prizes of the 2008 presidential
 RS>>> election and control of the Supreme Court.

 EH>> And this scares you how?

 RS>>> Some of his statements -- he famously blamed gays and lesbians
 RS>>> for provoking the September 11 attacks -- have eroded some of
 RS>>> his conservative support base. But he remains a rallying figure
 RS>>> on the far U.S. right.

 EH>> Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

 EH>> The "far U.S. right." Boo!

 RS> REALLY intelligent answer. (sarcasm off)

So far you haven't given me an intelligent argument to support your point. You
can't even form a coherent thought on your own. You have to copy and paste
someone else's words to even try to make a point.

 RS>>> "I think we got the social and moral issues on the front burner.
 RS>>> But while we have made progress ... we have not won any of the
 RS>>> battles yet," Falwell told Reuters in an interview.

 EH>> What makes you think he will be successful? This article says his
 EH>> influence has eroded.

 RS> He doesn't give up, in case you haven't noticed.

So? Would you rather he be kept from voicing his opinion? Is free speech only
free if it agrees with *your* agenda?

 RS>>> "It is a long road back. We are at least one U.S. Supreme Court
 RS>>> Justice short of a socially conservative court," Falwell said on
 RS>>> the sidelines of an evangelist conference in Dallas.
 RS>>> People like Falwell are, to my mind, far more of a danger to
 RS>>> liberty and freedom here in the US than any number of Al Qaida
 RS>>> terrorists. After all, the chances of a member of Al Qaeda ever
 RS>>> sitting in the Oval Office are pretty slim whereas Falwell and
 RS>>> the like have serious political clout on the far right of the
 RS>>> Republican Party. Serious GOP presidential contenders like John
 RS>>> McCain and Mitt Romney are already courting Falwell and other
 RS>>> dominionists for their support.

 EH>> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

 EH>> So, if either of them win in 2008 it will mean they have become a
 EH>> "far right" Republican -- the "far right" has won?

 RS> In a way, yes.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

Please feel free to explain.

 RS>>> What does their granting that support to the dominionist
 RS>>> religious right entail? Well, some progress towards their
 RS>>> agenda, of course. And they describe that agenda in their own
 RS>>> words far better than I ever could. Theocracy Watch has
 RS>>> collected many of their utterances.

 EH>> "Theocracy Watch?" Are you serious?

 EH>> Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

 RS>>> D. James Kennedy, Pastor of Coral Ridge Ministries,
 EH>> �Reclaiming America for
 RS>>> Christ� conference in February, 2005. Our job is to reclaim
 RS>>> America for Christ, whatever the cost. As the vice regents of
 RS>>> God, we are to exercise godly dominion and influence over our
 RS>>> neighborhoods, our schools, our government, our literature and
 RS>>> arts, our sports arenas, our entertainment media, our news
 RS>>> media, our scientific endeavors � in short, over every aspect
 RS>>> and institution of human society.

 EH>> Never heard of D. James Kennedy. What exactly does reclaiming America
 EH>> for Christ mean to you?

 RS> Look at that title again.
 RS> Why does America need to be "reclaimed" for their version of Christ?
 RS> Obviously, so they can get back the power and influence they once had.

What power and influence was that?

 RS> James Kennedy took a lot of flack just last year, when he put out a DVD
 RS> that was summed up in one sentence:
 RS> "No Darwin, no Hitler."

So, IOW, he's a fringe figure. He obviously has no real influence to speak of.
Why are you so frightened of someone who has no influence?

 RS>>> Christian Coalition field director, Bill Thomson, You�re going
 EH>> to run over
 RS>>> them. Get around them, run over the top of them, destroy them -
 RS>>> whatever you need to do so that God�s word is the word that is
 RS>>> being practiced in Congress, town halls and state legislatures.
 RS>>> That�s your job.

 EH>> Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

 EH>> Boo!

 RS>>> Representative John Hostetler, R-IN, Christian Coalition Speech:
 EH>> �When the
 RS>>> courts make unconstitutional decisions, we should not enforce
 RS>>> them,� he told attendees. �Federal courts have no army or
 EH>> navy.. The court can opine,
 RS>>> decide, talk about, sing, whatever it wants to do. We�re not
 RS>>> saying they can�t do that. At the end of the day, we�re
 EH>> saying the court can�t enforce
 RS>>> its opinions.�

 EH>> He's right. The court's job is to decide the constitutionality of any
 EH>> given law. They aren't supposed to legislate from the bench. The
 EH>> Constitution does not change without the amendment process. It is
 EH>> *NOT* a "living breathing" document that changes with time. It means
 EH>> the same thing today as it did when it was written. If that is not
 EH>> the case, it is not worth the parchment it is written on.

 RS> Except Hostetler stated SC rulings against coercive religion was
 RS> "unconstitutional."

He's not entitled to an opinion?

 RS>>> Joseph Morecraft, pastor of the Reconstructionist Chalcedon
 RS>>> Presbyterian Church in Marietta, Georgia: �Nobody has the
 RS>>> right to worship on this planet any other God than Jehovah. And
 RS>>> therefore the state does not have the responsibility to defend
 EH>> anybody�s pseudo-right to worship an idol!�

 EH>> Good grief! Your copy and paste article is digging up all kinds of
 EH>> obscure quotes in an attempt to prove its agenda.

 RS> Georgia politicians, including possible 2008 presidential candidate Newt
 RS> Gingrich, actively court Reverend Morecaft.

How do you know this?

And politicians on the left actively court "Reverend" Jackson.

Your point?

 RS>>> Gary North, Institute for Christian Economics, �So let us be
 RS>>> blunt about it: we must use the doctrine of religious liberty to
 RS>>> gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a
 RS>>> generation of people who know that there is no religious
 EH>> neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and
 RS>>> no neutral civil government. Then they will get busy in
 RS>>> constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order
 RS>>> which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of
 RS>>> God.�

 EH>> This is getting hilarious.

 RS>>> George Grant, a leading dominionist writer in �The Changing of
 EH>> the Guard,
 RS>>> Biblical Principles for Political Action�: Christians have an
 EH>> obligation, a
 RS>>> mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land
 RS>>> for Jesus Christ � to have dominion in civil structures, just
 RS>>> as in every other aspect of life and godliness. But it is
 RS>>> dominion we are after. Not just a voice. It is dominion we are
 RS>>> after. Not just influence. It is dominion we are after. Not just
 RS>>> equal time. It is dominion we are after. World conquest.
 EH>> That�s what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win
 RS>>> the world with the power of the Gospel. And we must never settle
 RS>>> for anything less� Thus, Christian politics has as its primary
 RS>>> intent the conquest of the land � of men, families,
 RS>>> institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the
 RS>>> Kingdom of Christ.

 RS>>> Reconstructionist theologian David Chilton Our goal is world
 EH>> dominion under
 RS>>> Christ�s lordship, a world �take over� if you will.

 RS>>> Jerry Falwell, 1999: �[T]hese perverted homosexuals.absolutely
 RS>>> hate everything that you and I and most decent, God-fearing
 RS>>> citizens stand for. Make no mistake. These deviants seek no less
 RS>>> than total control and influence in society, politics, our
 RS>>> schools and in our exercise of free speech and religious
 RS>>> freedom..If we do not act now, homosexuals will own America!�

 RS>>> Pat Robertson, Christian Coalition, "It�s going to be a
 EH>> spiritual battle.
 RS>>> There will be Satanic forces�. We are not going to be coming
 RS>>> up just against human beings, to beat them in elections. We�re
 EH>> going to be coming
 RS>>> up against spiritual warfare.�

 RS>>> David Limbaugh, �we have a right, indeed an obligation to
 RS>>> govern.�

 EH>> David Limbaugh? He's a lawyer, not a "theocrat."

 RS> A lawyer can be a theocrat.

Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

 RS> David Limbaugh wrote a book full of "us Christians are being
 RS> persecuted!" hysteria.

His not allowed to wirte a book?

 RS>>> Pledge recited at �Reclaiming America For Christ�
 EH>> conference: �I pledge
 RS>>> allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Savior for whose
 RS>>> kingdom it stands. One Savior, crucified, risen and coming
 RS>>> again, with life and liberty for all who believe.�

 EH>> http://cernigsnewshog.blogspot.com/2007/02/falwell-wants-dominionist-
 EH>> in-white.h tml

 RS>>> Now substitute "Allah" for "God" or "Jesus Christ," and you'll
 RS>>> see precisely what I mean.

 EH>> You are making an intellectually lazy comparisan between Islam and
 EH>> Christianity. There is *no* comparisan. Islam was built by the sword.
 EH>> Christianity was built by peace.

 RS> The early church was based on coercion.

Yeah, several hundred years ago. Since then the church has gone through a
renaissance. There is no Church sponsored wars, nor does the church go after
witches or belasphemers and torture them. There has been over 400 years since
any of that went on.

 EH>> Now don't bring up the Crusades as an example of Christianity because
 EH>> they were an aberration -- an exception to the rule. Even the Spanish
 EH>> inquisition was an exception to the rule. Before those two
 EH>> aberrations and since their end you cannot point to any point where
 EH>> Christians or Christianity have espoused violence.

 RS> So all those years from Constantine to the Renaissance had no torture,
 RS> murders, jailings, etc?

That isn't my point and you know it. You see, this is why honest discussion is
impossible with you. You try to put words in your opponant's mouth and can't
stay focused on the issue at hand.

You can't point to the "Holy Roman Church" of 1500 and claim that there is any
resemblence between then and now. Specifically in this coutry since we have a
Constitution that prohibits government sponsored religion.

Your fears are unfounded. There are only a minority of people who even hint at
the desire for a theocracy here in the US.

Ed

-- 
"But the safety of the people of America against dangers from
foreign force depends not only on their forbearing to give
just causes of war to other nations, but also on their placing
and continuing themselves in such a situation as not to invite
hostility or insult; for it need not be observed that there are
pretended as well as just causes of war."

-- John Jay (Federalist No. 4)


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