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Text 11838, 369 rader
Skriven 2006-06-28 13:21:44 av Rich (1:379/45)
  Kommentar till text 11774 av Geo (1:379/45)
Ärende: Re: PCI hardware ID
===========================
From: "Rich" <@>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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        charset="iso-8859-1"
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   Feel free to jerk around your customers if you wish.  Despite your =
desire to do so, the users themselves don't like this and don't care why = you
think it should not work.

Rich

  "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message news:449c941f@w3.nls.net...
  It's really simple to do, you just put a "strict" meter on IE so that =
users can set it to very strict, pretty strict, somewhat strict, fuckit = make
it work. And then set pretty strict as the default. Now let the = websites
explain to users they have to set it to the fuckit setting.=20

  Geo.
    "Rich" <@> wrote in message news:449993de@w3.nls.net...
       Users can't see why something doesn't work but do see that it =
doesn't.  If you want clients to enforce the types returned by the = sittes you
should start by getting sites to return correct info.  You = could do this on
your own.  Write or grab a crawler and start crawling = the internet.  Send
email to the webmasters for any sites with mistakes. =
 Good luck.

    Rich

      "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:449764b9@w3.nls.net...
      Rich,

      I didn't say there weren't a dozen different excuses for why =
things are the way they are now.  I just think it's wrong to perpetuate = the
mistakes by supporting what is obviously the wrong way to do things. = Look at
how much lame hardware NT cleaned up. That's because it didn't = allow the
level of "cheating" that DOS and Win9x did, it enforced the = rules better and
we are better off now.

      Same thing should happen with all the other cases where past =
mistakes have created a situation that the computer must guess. Break = the
damn websites that aren't working right, enforce strict file types = for text
files. Stop accepting the excuses that it MUST guess to be = compatible and
enforce some rules.

      Things have a habit of getting real complicated all by themselves, =
we don't need to be helping confusion get a grip on our computer =
environments. Just because some programmer decided he CAN divide by zero =
doesn't mean every programmer should now support that till the end of = time.

      Geo.
        "Rich" <@> wrote in message news:449720d7@w3.nls.net...
           Two different issues.  IE has to apply heuristics to file =
types because the servers that return this content often return bogus, = both
incorrect or invalid, types.  It's not easy to fix.  IE had to do = this
because netscape didn't enforce types and to be compatible IE = couldn't
either.  Because the types aren't enforced lots of servers = still do this
wrong.  Because they do types can't be enforced.

           Text and Unicode is first a false distinction.  It's all =
text.  In the case of Notepad, you mean UTF-16 text vs. UTF-8 text vs. = ANSI
text as this is the distinction that Notepad makes on load.  Even = that misses
the complexity as what people call ANSI is actually any of = 14 distinct and
incompatible ANSI encodings and is often one of many OEM = encodings which may
be distinct from any of the ANSI ones.  It is = complicated because for many of
the ANSI encodings including the one = used in the U.S. and Western Europe,
anything could be valid.  Because = of this it is not always possible to make a
distinction between UTF-16 = and ANSI as a file could validly be either.  UTF-8
is restrictive so it = is easy to tell if something is valid UTF-8.  That could
still be a = problem as valid UTF-8 could be valid ANSI too.  Instead some
heuristics = are applied.  For example if you see 0D 00 0A 00 then the file is
= probably UTF-16 while if you see 0D 0A it may be ANSI though U+0A0D = might
be a valid Unicode character.  I didn't look.

        Rich

          "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:449444fd$2@w3.nls.net...
          That's not what I meant when I said computers today guess. I =
meant how
          computers today guess at the answer when the problem doesn't =
have a unique
          solution. Example would be how IE guesses file types or how =
notepad guesses
          between text and unicode.

          Geo.

          "Antti Kurenniemi" <NOantti@SPAManttikPLEASE.com> wrote in =
message
          news:449392b8$1@w3.nls.net...
          > It was equally bad having people guess things. "I'll switch =
this dip here
          > and that there, and then those jumpers that I just dropped =
and have no
          clue
          > about where they should go... I'll just make a neat row of =
them here,
          > that'll do it". I remember a lot of hardware having huge =
manuals for just
          > configuring the stupid dip switches and whatnots, and that =
it was possible
          > to fry things by misconfiguring them. No thanks to that - =
nowadays, at
          least
          > you don't have to get your hands dirty to break your =
computer <g>
          >
          >
          > Antti Kurenniemi
          >
          > "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:44938e6a$2@w3.nls.net...
          > I kind of prefer the days when computers didn't "guess" at =
things. We used
          > to have a saying "computers don't make mistakes" but all =
that changed
          now..
          >
          > Geo.
          >   "Rich" <@> wrote in message news:4493558b$1@w3.nls.net...
          >      You don't expect a mainframe to automatically detect =
any off the
          shelf
          > adapter that is plugged in.  The PC could go back to the =
dark ages too as
          > this is how things used to be when the PC first came to be.
          >
          >   Rich
          >
          >
          >


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2912" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Feel free to jerk around =
your=20
customers if you wish.&nbsp; Despite your desire to do so, the users =
themselves=20
don't like this and don't care why you think it should not = work.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV>"Geo" &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>&gt; wrote=20
  in message <A=20
  =
href=3D"news:449c941f@w3.nls.net">news:449c941f@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It's really simple to do, you just =
put a "strict"=20
  meter on IE so that users can set it to very strict, pretty strict, =
somewhat=20
  strict, fuckit make it work. And then set&nbsp;pretty&nbsp;strict as =
the=20
  default. Now let the websites explain to users they have to set it to =
the=20
  fuckit setting. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV>"Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
    =
href=3D"news:449993de@w3.nls.net">news:449993de@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Users can't see why =
something=20
    doesn't work but do see that it doesn't.&nbsp; If you want clients =
to=20
    enforce the types returned by the sittes you should start by getting =
sites=20
    to return correct info.&nbsp; You could do this on your own.&nbsp; =
Write or=20
    grab a crawler and start crawling the internet.&nbsp; Send email to =
the=20
    webmasters for any sites with mistakes.&nbsp; Good =
luck.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV>"Geo" &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>&gt;=20
      wrote in message <A=20
      =
href=3D"news:449764b9@w3.nls.net">news:449764b9@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich,</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I didn't say there weren't a =
dozen different=20
      excuses for why things are the way they are now.&nbsp; I just =
think it's=20
      wrong to perpetuate the mistakes by supporting what is obviously =
the wrong=20
      way to do things. Look at how much lame hardware NT cleaned up. =
That's=20
      because it didn't allow the level of "cheating" that DOS and Win9x =
did, it=20
      enforced the rules better and we are better off now.</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Same thing should happen with all =
the other=20
      cases where past mistakes have created a situation that the =
computer must=20
      guess. Break the damn websites that aren't working right, enforce =
strict=20
      file types for text files. Stop accepting the excuses that it MUST =
guess=20
      to be compatible and enforce some rules.</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Things have a habit of getting =
real=20
      complicated all by themselves, we don't need to be helping =
confusion get a=20
      grip on our computer environments. Just because some programmer =
decided he=20
      CAN divide by zero doesn't mean every programmer should now =
support that=20
      till the end of time.</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
      style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV>"Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
        =
href=3D"news:449720d7@w3.nls.net">news:449720d7@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Two different =
issues.&nbsp; IE=20
        has to apply heuristics to file types because the servers that =
return=20
        this content often return bogus, both incorrect or invalid, =
types.&nbsp;=20
        It's not easy to fix.&nbsp; IE had to do this because netscape =
didn't=20
        enforce types and to be compatible IE couldn't either.&nbsp; =
Because the=20
        types aren't enforced lots of servers still do this wrong.&nbsp; =
Because=20
        they do types can't be enforced.</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Text and Unicode =
is first a=20
        false distinction.&nbsp; It's all text.&nbsp; In the case of =
Notepad,=20
        you mean UTF-16 text&nbsp;vs. UTF-8 text vs. ANSI text as this =
is the=20
        distinction that Notepad makes on load.&nbsp; Even that misses =
the=20
        complexity as what people call ANSI is actually any of 14 =
distinct and=20
        incompatible ANSI encodings and is often one of many OEM =
encodings which=20
        may be distinct from any of the ANSI ones.&nbsp; It is =
complicated=20
        because for many of the ANSI encodings including the one used in =
the=20
        U.S. and Western Europe, anything could be valid.&nbsp; Because =
of this=20
        it is not always possible to make a distinction between UTF-16 =
and ANSI=20
        as a file could validly be either.&nbsp; UTF-8 is restrictive so =
it is=20
        easy to tell if something is valid UTF-8.&nbsp; That could still =
be a=20
        problem as valid UTF-8 could be valid ANSI too.&nbsp; Instead =
some=20
        heuristics are applied.&nbsp; For example if you see 0D 00 0A 00 =
then=20
        the file is probably UTF-16 while if you see 0D 0A it may be =
ANSI though=20
        U+0A0D might be a valid Unicode character.&nbsp; I didn't=20
        look.</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <BLOCKQUOTE=20
        style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
          <DIV>"Geo" &lt;<A=20
          href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>&gt; wrote =
in message=20
          <A=20
          =
href=3D"news:449444fd$2@w3.nls.net">news:449444fd$2@w3.nls.net</A>...</DI=
V>That's=20
          not what I meant when I said computers today guess. I meant=20
          how<BR>computers today guess at the answer when the problem =
doesn't=20
          have a unique<BR>solution. Example would be how IE guesses =
file types=20
          or how notepad guesses<BR>between text and=20
          unicode.<BR><BR>Geo.<BR><BR>"Antti Kurenniemi" &lt;<A=20
          =
href=3D"mailto:NOantti@SPAManttikPLEASE.com">NOantti@SPAManttikPLEASE.com=
</A>&gt;=20
          wrote in message<BR><A=20
          =
href=3D"news:449392b8$1@w3.nls.net">news:449392b8$1@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>=
&gt;=20
          It was equally bad having people guess things. "I'll switch =
this dip=20
          here<BR>&gt; and that there, and then those jumpers that I =
just=20
          dropped and have no<BR>clue<BR>&gt; about where they should =
go... I'll=20
          just make a neat row of them here,<BR>&gt; that'll do it". I =
remember=20
          a lot of hardware having huge manuals for just<BR>&gt; =
configuring the=20
          stupid dip switches and whatnots, and that it was =
possible<BR>&gt; to=20
          fry things by misconfiguring them. No thanks to that - =
nowadays,=20
          at<BR>least<BR>&gt; you don't have to get your hands dirty to =
break=20
          your computer &lt;g&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Antti=20
          Kurenniemi<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; "Geo" &lt;<A=20
          href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>&gt; wrote =
in message=20
          <A=20
          =
href=3D"news:44938e6a$2@w3.nls.net">news:44938e6a$2@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>=
&gt;=20
          I kind of prefer the days when computers didn't "guess" at =
things. We=20
          used<BR>&gt; to have a saying "computers don't make mistakes" =
but all=20
          that changed<BR>now..<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Geo.<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
"Rich"=20
          &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
          =
href=3D"news:4493558b$1@w3.nls.net">news:4493558b$1@w3.nls.net</A>...<BR>=
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
          You don't expect a mainframe to automatically detect any off=20
          the<BR>shelf<BR>&gt; adapter that is plugged in.&nbsp; The PC =
could go=20
          back to the dark ages too as<BR>&gt; this is how things used =
to be=20
          when the PC first came to be.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
          =
Rich<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOT=
E></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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