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Text 2009, 410 rader
Skriven 2005-01-17 06:15:54 av Geo (1:379/45)
   Kommentar till text 1999 av Rich (1:379/45)
Ärende: Re: Do we protect users from their own stupidity?
=========================================================
From: "Geo" <georger@nls.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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People fall prey to phishing attacks because outlook shows them the text = name
instead of the real email address and because it doesn't show them = the
headers.

Back when I started doing email, the email programs by default showed = all the
headers and it made me aware that this information was there, it = caused me to
ask what it means. Today email programs hide all the = information that is
useful in telling the real source of an email. Even = the feature that allows
you to see this information is hidden away in = today's email programs.

This is one of the reasons phishing attacks are successful, the other is = that
you can't trust the address bar. And yes, I have been fooled by the = address
bar and by my email program showing a false name in the from = field and also
by links that show one site but actually link to another. = This is one of the
reasons I choose to view all my email as plain text = instead of html.

Geo.
  "Rich" <@> wrote in message news:41eaf508@w3.nls.net...
     I disagree.

     People do very much know the difference between their own computer =
and the other computers referenced in phishing attacks.  They know that = email
comes from somewhere outside their computer.  They know the web = site to which
they are referred is not their computer.  They still are = fooled.

     People know they are choosing to download and install software from =
the Internet.  What they may not know is that it is or contains spyware. =
 There is no confusion over boundaries.

     I believe your whole idea of trust is off base.  People aren't =
making decisions on whether or not to trust particular machines.  I = douby
very much most people even think that way.  People place trust in = other
people or in some cases who they believe those people are.  = Phishing attacks
for bank sites succeed because the people the fall pray = to them believe that
the people sending the email are valid = representitives of the bank and they
trust those people.

     As for your initial premise, I honestly don't know what it is you =
believe is consistent that should not be or is different that should not = be. 
You can't be referring to the browser which is almost never used = for the
local computer and clearly identifies what is local and what is = not.

     Your claim regarding phishing is also wrong.  The address bar is =
one possible indicator to users.  Phishing attacks preceeded any of = these and
continue without them.  I've seen phishing emails that make no = attempt to
mask the domain to which they refer.  People still get = fooled.  The address
bar probably means little to many users.  I can = tell when speaking with and
helping non-technical users that even though = they get that they type into the
address bar to go to a site they do not = always get that it is overloaded to
provide feedback to them where they = have gone.  The same with the status bar.
 Their have been status bar = spoofs.  They make little difference.  Do any of
these make a difference = to you so that you would be fooled?

  Rich

    "Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message news:41ea4440@w3.nls.net...
    part of the reason it's so easy to fool people is because of =
Microsoft. Remember some years ago when I said to make a consistant = interface
that blurs the line between the local machine and remote = machines/internet
machines was a mistake? Well that's one of the big = reasons why people today
are so easy to fool. They don't understand the = concept of trusted/untrusted
machines because it all looks the same to = them. They honestly don't know
where their machine ends and the rest of = the world begins.

    I understood the logic behind making that a consistent interface and =
blurring the line but I saw the problem with it as well. How is a user = to
know the difference between a remote website and a help page from one = of
their own programs if there is no difference?

    As for not knowing anyone who was infected due to the exploit of a =
bug, doesn't phishing work because of a bug that allows IE to show one =
address in the address bar while in fact it's talking to another = address?
What, doesn't that count?

    Geo.
      "Rich" <@> wrote in message news:41e9f4ea$1@w3.nls.net...
         You can't protect them from their own stupidity.  I've seen =
plenty of examples of people getting infected with spyware due to their = own
explicit actions, either approving when asked if something should be =
installed or explicitly downloading and installing something that is or =
includes spyware.  I do not know of anyone personally that was infected = due
to an exploit of a bug.  Phishing is another example that relies = almost
entirely on people being to trusting and doing something they = shouldn't.  I
haven't seen an email virus in a long time that did not = rely on the user
following instructions in the email to act against his = own interest and run
or even save then open and run something they = shouldn't.  We are well beyond
what many folks would consider security.  = To protect against people making
these kinds of mistakes you have to = take choices they can't be trusted making
away from them.  That upsets = the folks that can be trusted to or want to make
these choices unhappy.  = This isn't far from the idea that putting you in a
straightjacket makes = you more secure because you are less likely to hurt
yourself.  As for = how people react to this, do you remember the reaction to
cars that = buzzed or otherwise made noise when the driver or a passenger did
not = wear his seat belt?  It wasn't positive.

      Rich
        "Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> wrote in =
message news:48qju0547j4l00akdf69j0bip7fgj8bmp5@4ax.com...
        And that is a very big problem when trying to figure out what =
security
        features should be built in or what functionality should be =
allowed.  Do
        we protect users from their own stupidity?   I guess there is a
        rationale for doing so in that if the masses' machines are laxly =
secured
        (if at all), the danger to _everyone_ increases.

        On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:07:12 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in message
        <41e30a96@w3.nls.net>:

        >   I agree there are a great many people that have no interest =
in or familiarity with exercising the control available to them.  That = will
always be true. =20
        >
        >Rich
        >
        >  "Ellen K." <72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com> wrote =
in message news:7og4u0pj8f0nq10sm8t2covkac7q75oj1s@4ax.com...
        >  Well, I think this conversation is all over the place =
regarding who we
        >  are talking about when we talk about users.  The folks here =
are an
        >  entirely different animal from the famous great unwashed =
masses.
        >
        >  On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:40:28 -0800, "Rich" <@> wrote in =
message
        >  <41e0fbe8@w3.nls.net>:
        >
        >  >   Because you are in control, my point to george.
        >  >
        >  >Rich

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>People fall prey to phishing attacks =
because=20
outlook shows them the text name instead of the real email address and =
because=20
it doesn't show them the headers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Back when I started doing email, the =
email programs=20
by default showed all the headers and it made me aware that this = information
was=20
there, it caused me to ask what it means. Today email programs hide all =
the=20
information that is useful in telling the real source of an email. Even =
the=20
feature that allows you to see this information is hidden away in = today's
email=20
programs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is one of the reasons phishing =
attacks are=20
successful, the other is that you can't trust the address bar. And yes, = I
have=20
been fooled by the address bar and by my email program showing a false = name
in=20
the from field and also by links that show one site but actually link to =

another. This is one of the reasons I choose to view all my email as = plain
text=20
instead of html.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV>"Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
  =
href=3D"news:41eaf508@w3.nls.net">news:41eaf508@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; I disagree.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; People do very much know =
the=20
  difference between their own computer and the other computers =
referenced in=20
  phishing attacks.&nbsp; They know that email comes from somewhere =
outside=20
  their computer.&nbsp; They know the web site to which they are =
referred is not=20
  their computer.&nbsp; They still are fooled.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; People know they are=20
  choosing&nbsp;to download and install software from the =
Internet.&nbsp; What=20
  they may not know is that it is or contains spyware.&nbsp; There is no =

  confusion over boundaries.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; I believe your whole =
idea of trust=20
  is off base.&nbsp; People aren't making decisions on whether or not to =
trust=20
  particular machines.&nbsp; I douby very much most people even think =
that=20
  way.&nbsp; People place trust in other people or in some cases who =
they=20
  believe those people are.&nbsp; Phishing attacks for bank sites =
succeed=20
  because the people the fall pray to them believe that the people =
sending the=20
  email are valid representitives of the bank and they trust those=20
  people.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; As for your initial =
premise, I=20
  honestly don't know what it is you believe is consistent that should =
not be or=20
  is different that should not be.&nbsp; You can't be referring to the =
browser=20
  which is almost never used for the local computer and clearly =
identifies what=20
  is local and what is not.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Your claim regarding =
phishing is=20
  also wrong.&nbsp; The address bar is one possible indicator to =
users.&nbsp;=20
  Phishing attacks preceeded any of these and continue without =
them.&nbsp; I've=20
  seen phishing emails that make no attempt to mask the domain to which =
they=20
  refer.&nbsp; People still get fooled.&nbsp; The address bar probably =
means=20
  little to many users.&nbsp; I can tell when speaking with and helping=20
  non-technical users that even though they get that they type into the =
address=20
  bar to go to a site they do not always get that it is overloaded to =
provide=20
  feedback to them where they have gone.&nbsp; The same with the status=20
  bar.&nbsp; Their have been status bar spoofs.&nbsp; They make little=20
  difference.&nbsp; Do any of these make a difference to you so that you =
would=20
  be fooled?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV>"Geo" &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>&gt;=20
    wrote in message <A=20
    =
href=3D"news:41ea4440@w3.nls.net">news:41ea4440@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>part of the reason it's so easy to =
fool people=20
    is because of Microsoft. Remember some years ago when I said to make =
a=20
    consistant interface that blurs the line between the local machine =
and=20
    remote machines/internet machines was a mistake? Well that's one of =
the big=20
    reasons why people today are so easy to fool. They don't understand =
the=20
    concept of trusted/untrusted machines because it all looks the same =
to them.=20
    They honestly don't know where their machine ends and the rest of =
the world=20
    begins.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I understood the logic behind =
making that a=20
    consistent interface and blurring the line but I saw the problem =
with it as=20
    well. How is a user to know the difference between a remote website =
and a=20
    help page from one of their own programs if there is no=20
    difference?</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As for not knowing anyone who was =
infected due=20
    to the exploit of a bug, doesn't phishing work because of a bug that =
allows=20
    IE to show one address in the address bar while in fact it's talking =
to=20
    another address? What, doesn't that count?</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV>"Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message <A=20
      =
href=3D"news:41e9f4ea$1@w3.nls.net">news:41e9f4ea$1@w3.nls.net</A>...</DI=
V>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; You can't protect =
them from=20
      their own stupidity.&nbsp; I've seen plenty of examples of people =
getting=20
      infected with spyware due to their own explicit actions, either =
approving=20
      when asked if something should be installed or explicitly =
downloading and=20
      installing something that is or includes spyware.&nbsp; I do not =
know of=20
      anyone personally that was infected due to an exploit of a =
bug.&nbsp;=20
      Phishing is another example that relies almost entirely on people =
being to=20
      trusting and doing something they shouldn't.&nbsp; I haven't seen =
an email=20
      virus in&nbsp;a long time that did not rely on the user following=20
      instructions in the email to act against his own interest and run =
or even=20
      save then open and run something they shouldn't.&nbsp; We are well =
beyond=20
      what many folks would consider security.&nbsp; To protect against =
people=20
      making these kinds of mistakes you have to take choices they can't =
be=20
      trusted making away from them.&nbsp; That upsets the folks that =
can be=20
      trusted to or want to make these choices unhappy.&nbsp; This isn't =
far=20
      from the idea that putting you in a straightjacket makes you more =
secure=20
      because you are less likely to hurt yourself.&nbsp; As for how =
people=20
      react to this, do you remember the reaction to cars that buzzed or =

      otherwise made noise when the driver or a passenger did not wear =
his seat=20
      belt?&nbsp; It wasn't positive.</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE=20
      style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV>"Ellen K." &lt;<A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>&gt;=20
        wrote in message <A=20
        =
href=3D"news:48qju0547j4l00akdf69j0bip7fgj8bmp5@4ax.com">news:48qju0547j4=
l00akdf69j0bip7fgj8bmp5@4ax.com</A>...</DIV>And=20
        that is a very big problem when trying to figure out what=20
        security<BR>features should be built in or what functionality =
should be=20
        allowed.&nbsp; Do<BR>we protect users from their own=20
        stupidity?&nbsp;&nbsp; I guess there is a<BR>rationale for doing =
so in=20
        that if the masses' machines are laxly secured<BR>(if at all), =
the=20
        danger to _everyone_ increases.<BR><BR>On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 =
15:07:12=20
        -0800, "Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message<BR>&lt;<A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:41e30a96@w3.nls.net">41e30a96@w3.nls.net</A>&gt;:<BR><BR>&=
gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
        I agree there are a great many people that have no interest in =
or=20
        familiarity with exercising the control available to them.&nbsp; =
That=20
        will always be true.&nbsp; =
<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Rich<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
        "Ellen K." &lt;<A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:72322.enno.esspeayem.1016@compuserve.com">72322.enno.esspe=
ayem.1016@compuserve.com</A>&gt;=20
        wrote in message <A=20
        =
href=3D"news:7og4u0pj8f0nq10sm8t2covkac7q75oj1s@4ax.com">news:7og4u0pj8f0=
nq10sm8t2covkac7q75oj1s@4ax.com</A>...<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
        Well, I think this conversation is all over the place regarding =
who=20
        we<BR>&gt;&nbsp; are talking about when we talk about =
users.&nbsp; The=20
        folks here are an<BR>&gt;&nbsp; entirely different animal from =
the=20
        famous great unwashed masses.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp; On Sun, 9 =
Jan 2005=20
        01:40:28 -0800, "Rich" &lt;@&gt; wrote in message<BR>&gt;&nbsp; =
&lt;<A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:41e0fbe8@w3.nls.net">41e0fbe8@w3.nls.net</A>&gt;:<BR>&gt;<=
BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
        &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Because you are in control, my point to=20
        george.<BR>&gt;&nbsp; &gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;=20
    =
&gt;Rich<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></=
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