Text 26777, 194 rader
Skriven 2007-02-02 00:43:15 av Ed Hulett (1:123/789.0)
  Kommentar till text 26771 av Mimi Gallandt (1:123/789.0)
Ärende: Presidential race
=========================
Mimi Gallandt -> Ed Hulett wrote:
 MG> Ed Hulett -> Mimi Gallandt wrote:
 EH>> Mimi Gallandt -> Ed Hulett wrote:
 MG>>> Ed Hulett -> John Hull wrote:
 EH>>>> John Hull -> Ed Hulett wrote:
 JH>>>>> Ed Hulett -> John Hull wrote:
 EH>>>>>> John Hull -> Ed Hulett wrote:
 JH>>>>>>> Ed Hulett -> John Hull wrote:
 EH>>>>>>>> John Hull -> Ed Hulett wrote:
 JH>>>>>>>>> Ed Hulett -> Bob Sakowski wrote:
 EH>>>>>>>>>> Bob Sakowski -> Ed Hulett wrote:
 BS>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 18:19:14 -0500, Ed Hulett wrote:

 >>>>>>>>>>>> John Hull -> Ed Hulett wrote:


 EH>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just how do we "shut down the border," John?

 JH>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's very simple.  You put up a 14 ft razorwired fence,
 EH>>>>>> augmented
 >>>>>>>>>>>> with
 JH>>>>>>>>>>>>> sensors.  You declare a one mile "no man's land" from the
 EH>>>> fence
 >>>>>>>>>>>> inland.
 JH>>>>>>>>>>>>> You patrol the line with armed UAV's and Army or National
 JH>>>>>>> Guard or
 JH>>>>>>>>>>>>> Border Patrol ground units.  Anyone who breaches the fence
 EH>>>> gets
 EH>>>>>>>> one
 JH>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to surrender or they get shot.

 >>>>>>>>>>>> Oh yeah, that's a realistic plan, John.


 BS>>>>>>>>>>> Gosh Ed, you mean youdon't remember how well that strategy
 EH>>>> worked
 EH>>>>>>>> for
 BS>>>>>>>>>>> the USSR in general  and East Germany in Berlin?

 EH>>>>>>>>>> Especially the shooting part.

 EH>>>>>>>>>> So far, John hasn't said anything about our northern border.


 JH>>>>>>>>> So far, we don't have a problem with the northern border.

 EH>>>>>>>> We don't? Do you think it'll stay that way if we block off the
 JH>>>>>>> southern
 EH>>>>>>>> border?

 JH>>>>>>>>> But note that I said "the border" - not specifying either
 MG> one in
 EH>>>>>>>> particular.  And, as
 JH>>>>>>>>> usual, Sakowski has his head buried up his nethers.  The USSR
 EH>> and
 JH>>>>>>> East
 JH>>>>>>>>> Germany maintained their borders to keep people from getting
 EH>> OUT.
 EH>>>>>>>> They
 JH>>>>>>>>> didn't have millions of people trying to get IN.

 EH>>>>>>>> Keeping people in or keeping people out, what's the difference?

 JH>>>>>>> That's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard you say.

 EH>>>>>> Excellent reply. I guess calling my question dumb allows you to
 JH>>>>> ignore it.

 EH>>>>>>>> We're already going to have to carry passports if we want to
 EH>> visit
 EH>>>>>>>> Canada or Mexico. Not to leave, but to get back in. Do you think
 EH>>>>>> that's
 EH>>>>>>>> a good thing?

 EH>>>>>>>> How many of your libeties are you willing to give up in order to
 JH>>>>> feel
 EH>>>>>>>> secure?


 JH>>>>>>> You have to have a passport to get into damn near every
 MG> country on
 JH>>>>> the
 JH>>>>>>> planet.

 EH>>>>>> You miss the point, John. We now have to have a passport to get
 EH>> back
 EH>>>>>> *IN* the US.

 JH>>>>>>> If it keeps terrorists out, it doesn't bother me.

 EH>>>>>> And just how will limiting your liberties keep terrorists out?

 JH>>>>>>> Anyway, fat lot of good your liberties will do you if you start
 EH>>>>>> glowing
 JH>>>>>>> in the dark from a terrorist nuke going off.

 EH>>>>>> I see, so it's okay with you if you lose all your liberties
 MG> just so
 EH>>>>>> you're safe from being nuked by a terrorist?

 EH>>>>>> You know what Ben Franklin said about your thinking.


 JH>>>>> I didn't say anything about giving up any rights, you did.

 JH>>>>>> If it keeps terrorists out, it doesn't bother me.

 JH>>>>> Requiring you to identify yourself when coming into the country is
 EH>>>> not abrogating
 JH>>>>> any of your rights, any more than when a cop asks you for your
 EH>>>> driver's
 JH>>>>> licence when you get pulled over, or the bank asking you for an ID
 JH>>>>> before cashing a check.

 EH>>>> Whoa! Up until recently, you could travel to and from Canada and
 MG>>> Mexico
 EH>>>> without much more that a driver's license or simple ID. A
 MG> passport is
 EH>>>> much more than a simple ID -- to get one you must provide your birth
 EH>>>> certificate and other proof of citizenship. It costs upwards of
 MG>>> $100 to
 EH>>>> get a passport.

 MG>>> The INS has changed things again as it stands today to come into this
 MG>>> country no matter where you've been if you walk or drive in all you
 EH>> need
 MG>>> is a drivers license, if you fly or sail in you need a passport.
 EH>> That is
 MG>>> supposed to change to everyone coming in no matter what mode of
 MG>>> transportation will need a passport in 2008, but there's a lot of
 MG> time
 MG>>> between now and then and I wouldn't wager that it won't change again
 MG>>> before then. It costs $112 dollars for ten years for a passport
 MG> today,
 MG>>> but again there's a lot of time between now and then.

 EH>> And, as I have pointed out to John, a driver's license is a simple ID
 EH>> that does not prove citizenship, while a passport does prove
 MG> citizenship.

 EH>> The vast majority of illegals do not walk or drive across at a border
 EH>> crossing. They will hide themselves in cars and trucks and/or cross
 EH>> where there is no border crossing.

 EH>> Requiring passports to enter the US at border crossings will only
 MG> cause
 EH>> *honest* people to go to the extra expense and time to get a legal
 EH>> passport.

 EH>> So, for instance, if I wanted to take a day-trip to Victoria, BC or to
 EH>> Surry, BC to visit a friend, I will have to go to the trouble of
 MG> getting
 EH>> my birht certificate and then getting passport photos and then paying
 EH>> the $112 for a 10 year passport. Then wait up to 6 weeks to get the
 EH>> thing so I can take a *day-trip!*

 EH>> I'm not about to take any trip anywhere else out of country. I just
 EH>> don't have the money to do that. So, I guess a trip to BC is out of
 MG> the
 EH>> question come 2008 also.

 MG> My trips to Mexico are economic and even compared to exchange prices the
 MG> savings I get from buying cigarettes in the duty free store will pay off
 MG> that passport in less than a year. :)  I really don't understand the
 MG> duty free store thing; the land that the store sits on is on *THIS* side
 MG> of the border, not in TJ, but by going about 500 feet into TJ and coming
 MG> straight back out without going into *ANY* business there I save $10+
 MG> per carton and, like at the exchange, I don't pay taxes on it. I'm not
 MG> complaining about saving money, I'm just confused by the weirdness of it.

They have a duty free just this side of the Canadian border, too. I think they
have the duty free store so you'll spend money here in the US rather than
outside the country. They don't want you to just go to the duty free, so they
make it so you have to cross the border first.

Ed

-- 
"Were the pictures which have been drawn by the political
jealousy of some among us faithful likenesses of the human
character, the inference would be, that there is not
sufficient virtue among men for self-government; and that
nothing less than the chains of despotism can restrain them
from destroying and devouring one another."

-- Alexander Hamilton and James Madison (Federalist No. 55,
15 February 1788)


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