Text 6105, 382 rader
Skriven 2005-07-16 10:05:22 av Rich (1:379/45)
Kommentar till text 6098 av Geo (1:379/45)
Ärende: Re: eeye's irresponsible self-serving behavior
======================================================
From: "Rich" <@>
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Call which support, his ISP, his email provider, the web site (ha!), =
the recipients email provider (ha!). No, he calls me.
My father's ISP does not suggest a NAT setup. They supply DSL modems =
that include a NAT. I very much doubt they made this choice for = security.
They made it for cost. One IP from them for any number of = computers.
In any case, my father's ISP is not the subject. You and your =
security choices are what we are discussing and your choices are = arbitrary.
Rich
"Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message news:42d93a03@w3.nls.net...
for a user like your father, he knows to call support when he doesn't =
understand some problem he's having with the internet. Support will tell = him
who to blame and from then on he'll know. And typically if your = father were
to call an ISP to order dsl service, while the ISP may not = provide security
services they would certainly be likely to suggest a = NAT setup because it
will provide a more safe configuration for him. But = that's majorly different
from accepting responsibility for his safety, = nobody is going to do that for
some small fraction of the $30/month dsl = charge.
Asking why an ISP would not choose to provide a security service is =
sort of like asking why Microsoft would not choose to provide system =
administration services.
Geo.
"Rich" <@> wrote in message news:42d84966@w3.nls.net...
And you confirm just how arbitrary it is. My father is my =
example. He does not know who to blame when his can't access his email = or a
web site. It could be his ISP, his separate email provider, the = target web
site, or someone else in the middle. He also doesn't know = how to blame when
email he sends doesn't get to the recipient when he = expects it to. I think
you are fooling yourself.
You say you don't secure email immediately followed by saying =
that you do. There is no huge difference. You protect some of your =
customers some of the time which is what I said earlier. You are free = to
choose to but do not pretend that there is some magic to the = arbitrary
choices you make.
Rich
"Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:42d8343d$1@w3.nls.net...
Why do I think non-technical users see a difference? Because they =
know to call the ISP when our mail server isn't responding and they know = not
to call us when the browser says page not found.
We don't secure customers when it comes to email, if they get =
their email from somewhere other than our servers we do nothing to block = spam
or virus. All we do is prevent our servers from delivering virus = and we block
as much spam as possible from being sent to our servers. = There is a huge
difference between that and securing customers.
And you're right, it is a choice, just like writing our own OS or =
building our own line of computers is a choice, so what? Why is it you = think
that because Microsoft made the choice to build their own OS we = should be
responsible for securing it?
Geo.
"Rich" <@> wrote in message news:42d81e21@w3.nls.net...
Why do you think non-technical users will see a difference =
because you use different equipment for email than you do for other = parts of
the network?
ISPs should strive to secure their customers and when it =
comes to email you have stated that you attempt to do so. It is your =
business and you are free to pick and choose if and when you protect = your
paying customers. You should just acknowledge that you do make = this choice
and that your choices are pretty much arbitrary.
Rich
"Geo" <georger@nls.net> wrote in message =
news:42d8197d$1@w3.nls.net...
Come on Rich, nobody thinks like that. Spam and email virus =
exploit email so are blocked at the mail server, if the ISP hosts the = mail
then the ISP blocks it, if the user hosts their own mail then it's = their
problem. Same with worms, they exploit the machines, the ISP = secures the web
server hosting the user's homepage but the user secures = their personal
computer.
Other types of attacks like spoofed traffic, smurf attacks and =
such are network exploits and are blocked at the network.
Why should every ISP on the planet be responsible for securing =
Microsoft's products? That's typical, make it the responsibility of = anyone
but microsoft, huh? Call anyone who tells people about exploits = irresponsible
like finding an exploit is bad, blame the network admin = for not blocking all
bad traffic without defining bad traffic, blame the = user for clicking on an
attachment that came from someone he knows after = telling him to not trust
email from people he doesn't know, blame people = for not knowing how to get to
windowsupate without getting wormed after = telling them it's really simple
just turn on automatic updates, add a = "popup blocker" after making popups
possible, man what a scam.
Geo.
"Rich" <@> wrote in message news:42d72f66@w3.nls.net...
Windows XP without SP2 is still trivial. SP2 CDs are =
free and have been. See =
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/updates/sp2/cdorder/en_us/de=
fault.mspx.
I think from real people you will find that they do not =
consider receiving attacks from the ISP's controlled network acceptable, =
particular with a lame excuse such as the one you give that the network = is
functioning as intended when it allows them to be attacked. Just = like they
don't care that your email servers deliver spam and viruses to = them because
it is functioning as intended. Oh wait, you don't appear = to believe the
latter either so you are a hypocrite too.
Rich
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Call which support, his =
ISP, his email=20
provider, the web site (ha!), the recipients email provider (ha!). = No,
he=20
calls me.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> My father's ISP does not =
suggest a NAT=20
setup. They supply DSL modems that include a NAT. I very = much
doubt=20
they made this choice for security. They made it for cost. = One
IP=20
from them for any number of computers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> In any case, my father's =
ISP is not=20
the subject. You and your security choices are what we are = discussing
and=20
your choices are arbitrary.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Geo" <<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>> wrote=20
in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:42d93a03@w3.nls.net">news:42d93a03@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>for a user like your father, he knows =
to call=20
support when he doesn't understand some problem he's having with the =
internet.=20
Support will tell him who to blame and from then on he'll know. And =
typically=20
if your father were to call an ISP to order dsl service, while the ISP =
may not=20
provide security services they would certainly be likely to suggest a =
NAT=20
setup because it will provide a more safe configuration for him. But =
that's=20
majorly different from accepting responsibility for his safety, nobody =
is=20
going to do that for some small fraction of the $30/month dsl=20
charge.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Asking why an ISP would not choose to =
provide a security service is sort of like asking why =
Microsoft=20
would not choose to provide system administration =
services.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Rich" <@> wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:42d84966@w3.nls.net">news:42d84966@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> And you confirm just =
how arbitrary=20
it is. My father is my example. He does not know who to =
blame=20
when his can't access his email or a web site. It could be his =
ISP,=20
his separate email provider, the target web site, or someone else in =
the=20
middle. He also doesn't know how to blame when email he sends =
doesn't=20
get to the recipient when he expects it to. I think you are =
fooling=20
yourself.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> You say you don't =
secure email=20
immediately followed by saying that you do. There is no huge=20
difference. You protect some of your customers some of the =
time which=20
is what I said earlier. You are free to choose to but do not =
pretend=20
that there is some magic to the arbitrary choices you =
make.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Geo" <<A =
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>>=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:42d8343d$1@w3.nls.net">news:42d8343d$1@w3.nls.net</A>...</DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Why do I think non-technical =
users see a=20
difference? Because they know to call the ISP when our mail =
server=20
isn't responding and they know not to call us when the browser =
says page=20
not found.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We don't secure customers when it =
comes to=20
email, if they get their email from somewhere other than our =
servers we do=20
nothing to block spam or virus. All we do is prevent our servers =
from=20
delivering virus and we block as much spam as possible from being =
sent to=20
our servers. There is a huge difference between that and securing=20
customers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And you're right, it is a choice, =
just like=20
writing our own OS or building our own line of computers is a =
choice, so=20
what? Why is it you think that because Microsoft made the choice =
to build=20
their own OS we should be responsible for securing =
it?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Rich" <@> wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:42d81e21@w3.nls.net">news:42d81e21@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Why do you think =
non-technical=20
users will see a difference because you use different equipment =
for=20
email than you do for other parts of the network?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> ISPs should strive =
to secure=20
their customers and when it comes to email you have stated that =
you=20
attempt to do so. It is your business and you are free to =
pick and=20
choose if and when you protect your paying customers. You =
should=20
just acknowledge that you do make this choice and that your =
choices are=20
pretty much arbitrary.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Geo" <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:georger@nls.net">georger@nls.net</A>> wrote =
in message=20
<A=20
=
href=3D"news:42d8197d$1@w3.nls.net">news:42d8197d$1@w3.nls.net</A>...</DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Come on Rich, nobody thinks =
like that.=20
Spam and email virus exploit email so are blocked at the =
mail=20
server, if the ISP hosts the mail then the ISP blocks it, if =
the user=20
hosts their own mail then it's their problem. Same with worms, =
they=20
exploit the machines, the ISP secures the web server =
hosting the=20
user's homepage but the user secures their personal=20
computer.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Other types of attacks like =
spoofed=20
traffic, smurf attacks and such are network exploits and are =
blocked=20
at the network.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Why should every ISP on the =
planet be=20
responsible for securing Microsoft's products? That's typical, =
make it=20
the responsibility of anyone but microsoft, huh? Call anyone =
who tells=20
people about exploits irresponsible like finding an exploit is =
bad,=20
blame the network admin for not blocking all bad traffic =
without=20
defining bad traffic, blame the user for clicking on an =
attachment=20
that came from someone he knows after telling him to not trust =
email=20
from people he doesn't know, blame people for not knowing how =
to get=20
to windowsupate without getting wormed after telling them it's =
really=20
simple just turn on automatic updates, add a "popup blocker" =
after=20
making popups possible, man what a scam.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Geo.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Rich" <@> wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:42d72f66@w3.nls.net">news:42d72f66@w3.nls.net</A>...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Windows XP =
without SP2 is=20
still trivial. SP2 CDs are free and have been. =
See <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/updates/sp2/cdorder/=
en_us/default.mspx">http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/updates/=
sp2/cdorder/en_us/default.mspx</A>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I think from =
real people=20
you will find that they do not consider receiving attacks =
from the=20
ISP's controlled network acceptable, particular with a lame =
excuse=20
such as the one you give that the network is functioning as =
intended=20
when it allows them to be attacked. Just like they =
don't care=20
that your email servers deliver spam and viruses to =
them=20
because it is functioning as intended. Oh wait, you =
don't=20
appear to believe the latter either so you are a hypocrite=20
too.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rich</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOC=
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