Text 6345, 128 rader
Skriven 2008-02-12 14:37:12 av Richard Webb (1:116/901.0)
   Kommentar till text 6341 av Bob Klahn (1:124/311)
Ärende: Pro-Choice
==================
Hi Bob,

Bob Klahn wrote in a message to Richard Webb:

BK>>  There are very few people who cannot be trained for some
BK>>  productive work.

 RW> true, it comes down to personal motivation, then having
 RW> employment that provides for an actual living.

BK>  The second leads to the first.

AS one who has worked with helping folks who went blind later in life reclaim
their lives I know this to be true. THe old "which came first the chicken ... "


 RW> <Rotflmao!!!>   THis old curmudgeon became a libertarian
 RW> when he figured out that even with the best intentions
 RW> human greed would always be a factor, and the touchie
 RW> feelie types could be too easily manipulated by those who
 RW> wanted control for their own reasons. COrporate welfare
 RW> doesn't "trickle down" to the masses as folks like REagan
 RW> said it should.

BK>  All true, except... libertarianism offers no answer to that at 
BK> all.

true, my only argument for it being that if you can't buy the influence at all
then it least you can't be coerced by force of law into enriching the greedy
even further.

YET in my old age I've realized that I must temper my libertarian tendencies
with a bit of advocacy for government regulation and control. some things must
be regulated for the common good of all:  OUr water sources; the airwaves;
safety of food & drugs, etc.


 RW>> This means that employers will
 RW>> have to quit treating these service employees as disposable
 RW>> resources to use and discard if they can find a way to get
 RW>> it done much cheaper.

BK>>  But... but... isn't that the way it's *supposed* to be?

 RW> TO some extent yes.  BUt still, people must have the
 RW> ability to survive, otherwise work has no meaning.  spending
 RW> six hours a day for or five days a week at work and still
 RW> needing to beg for medical assistance or food aid doesn't
 RW> make for productive employees.

BK>  Absolutely true. And it is counter survival, which means, to  those
BK> of us who believe in evolutionary morality, it is wrong. 

COuntersurvival, counter to motivating people, in every way counter about
everything you can name. An employee who is not motivated to care about the
employer's interests is not a valued employee. YOu can't have a valued employee
unless you pay a living wage.


 RW>> some of the welfare mothers we rented to when my lady and I
 RW>> managed those apartment complexes in new Orleans weren't
 RW>> very trainable however.

BK>>  Like I said, there was something they could do. Cleaning hotel
BK>> rooms is not dishonorable work.

 RW> True enough, but often these jobs don't pay a living wage
 RW> these days.  Though one can tip the maid at the hotel few do.

BK>  Which is why we have welfare. Create enough jobs for the more 
BK> trainable, and the less trainable will be more in demand for  those
BK> jobs, which means paid better.

 THen we have folks like JM who think my neighbors and I are all a bunch of
parasites and won't mention or comment on
 our citing of such items as the half empty amtrack train, the folks who walked
across the bridge, etc.

 RW> do. Most of our tenants were the "working poor" and many
 RW> worked two or more jobs.  then to keep their residence they
 RW> had to do the paperwork shuffle once a year. DOccument

BK>  IOW, the accusations against the poor of New Orleans were lies. 


There were those who fit the characterization, but many
in fact more than the ultra rights would have you believe were working poor. 
Of these many worked under the table as it were, because if they didn't they'd
lose what assistance they did receive and could not survive. FOr example, the
deaf guy we rented to who worked part-time washing dishes in the quarter, and
did under the table construction labor.  I hired him more than once for a
couple of hours to help me load a truck or something similar.  Cash on the
barrelhead, no questions asked, nobody saw anything.

 RW> this, doccument that, at least an hour of filling out forms
 RW> and making sure their paperwork they had to show was in
 RW> order. THe few actual welfare mothers we had for the most
 RW> part had no motivation to acquire any training. One for


BK>  The availability of a job with a decent pay check would be.
You got that right!!!

BK> Remember, the "Great Society" was jobs based, not welfare based.  Go
BK> back to that and there is the motivation.

YEs but the motivation for many of the pencil pushers in the system was to just
process 'em quick and get 'em out.  Give 'em a fish and feed 'em today instead
of teach 'em how to fish. Remember the old proverb.
"give a man a fish, he eats today.  Teach a man how to fish and feed him for a
lifetime."
IT's easier to give 'em that fish knowing they'll be back later to get another
fish. teaching them how to fish means follow up on them and make sure they're
getting what they need to learn to fish for themselves.

 RW> but she could make more babies. she could also go to
 RW> Catholic charities and other organizations begging for
 RW> this, begging for that.

BK>  Which shows the private charities are doing no better.

true enough, there again, giving fishes instead of teaching people how to fish.

Regards,
           Richard
... Braille:  support true literacy for the blind.
--- timEd 1.10.y2k+
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